Saturday, April 12, 2008

The Soiling of Old Glory


Photograph © Stanley J. Forman. From Slate.com

This is not Armenia related but I felt that I had to post this photograph.

26 comments:

Armen Filadelfiatsi said...

That's a picture of the the lower-middle class committing suicide.

Nixon's racial machinations, inspired by Kissinger's ideas about how to control countries abroad, brought home and applied to the domestic population, all during the watch of soft-in-the brain liberals who were and are clueless about the danger people face. (Clueless back then, indifferent now, to be exact).

Sad, but there is still hope. Obama and Ter-Petrossian are miracles of inspiration to the people.

Anonymous said...

well, with all due respect, Levon is not exactly similar to Obama,
may be rather Bill Clinton, someone much better than the current authorities, but still a controversial figure,
which keeps many people sceptical.
if we had our own Obama, Serzhik would be finished in several hours. Now, he may last a year or two...

Armen Filadelfiatsi said...

anonymous, that's a good point that you bring up. LTP is like Clinton in the reflexive way that the Republicans jump, take out their guns, and start shooting in all directions when they hear his name, in the way that they have a kind of pathological obsession with him. That's absolutely true.

But, to me, he's more like Obama in the way that he has given hope to an entire people. When I'm defining him, what he has done outweighs what others feel toward him. But you do have a very good point.

reflective said...

Obama = Optimistic Hope.
LTP = Cynical hate.

Big difference, whether you are sitting in Philadelphia or Yerevan.

reflective said...

But I have to say Armen F, your yearning adoration for the architect of the filth today in Yerevan is impressive. You are amusing to read.

Anonymous said...

reflective,
Yes, LEvon is the architect of today's system.
But he's also the one who's trying to destroy that system. Do you see anyone else who's fighting the system?
Please, give just one name!
It is ironic, but LEvon, who is the architect of the system is also the ONLY one who is really trying to change it.
Why not help him?

the guy who talked about Obama

mayranoush said...

Reflective you write
'Obama = Optimistic Hope.
LTP = Cynical hate.'

Would you also fill in this blank
Serzhik = ---?----

reflective said...

Sure, mayranoush.

Serj = stable evolution of the existing system.

I know this may make some jump into an epileptic fit of rage or some kind of worshiping ecstasy. For me it is neither, I simply think that in general Armenia is on a more or less right path, and that the majority of the Armenians realize that, given the alternatives, this is the most practical choice.

As far as Levon the Destroyer, I think that little good can come out of it, anonymous. Oct 27 should be one data point demonstrating that such attempts bring little good/change. And you cannot invoke positive change with only negative hate.

Armen Filadelfiatsi said...

Self-styled "reflective,"

First you say LTP is the architect of today's system,

then you add that Serj is the "stable evolution" of it.

What is bad in LTP's case, becomes good in Serj's case.

That's a glaring double standard.

Except your "reflecting" is so sloppy and your attention span so short, you're incapable of hiding your dishonesty.

tzitzernak said...

October 27, like March 1, is an example of the origin of Serj's power. In fact, like you point out, March 1 is not surprising given it is the evolution/development of October 27.
October 27 cannot be compared in the way you are superficially doing. The recent "revolution"/movement is an attempt by an entire people to shift gears, to say the least.
October 27 was an assassination planned by at least one individual (now ex-president, and potentially others who may have been involved) to rid himself of opposition and gain more control.

And anonymous/obama - thanks for helping clarify which anonymous you are - with all the anonymous-es...

reflective said...

Where did I defend Serj? All I did is state that he is the stable evolution of the existing system. You are so hysterical when someone doesn't agree with you, you go off the deep end.

I think that the opposition needs to evolve, find new leaders that are indeed forward thinking (and not rehashed trash from the 90s) and get ready for 2011 parliamentary elections.

reflective said...

tzitzernak - Where is the proof that Kocharian planned anything related to Oct 27? Or are you referring to LTP as the planner when you say ex-president?? :)

Armen Filadelfiatsi said...

OK, so "stable evolution," or what commonly means "steadily moving ahead, toward something more advanced," is a bad thing now?

No. Hence, you were defending his tyranny.

Conclusion: You have a double-standard.

You try to slyly hide it, but you're incompetent and don't do a very good job.

tzitzernak said...

Reflective- As you well know, I was referring to Kocharian. Just so I know where to start, though as you know there are no documents for proof, I wonder, who do you think planned October 27?

reflective said...

Armen: I didn't say tyranny - you did. I simply stated that Serj was the choice of continuity and stable evolution. For it or against it, that is a different story, but I think there is little controversial in the statement.

The history is clear: LTP was the architect of the modern oligarch-run state in Armenia. Kocharian perpetuated it. Now Sargsyan is the continuity. I miss the slyness or the double-standard, but you are free to interpret my comment any way you want.

Tzitzernak: I have no idea who planned Oct 27, I was just wondering if you found the smoking gun or the 2nd gunman on the grassy knoll.

Anonymous said...

Reflective with your grassy knoll comment you sound very much like the Turkish deniers of the genocide. How much proof do you require to accept RK and SS were behind October 27?

We understand you intensely dislike Levon, but your lack of objectivity makes you look absurd.

reflective said...

How much? This is getting more than amusing. I said I have no idea, you claim to know that RK (and now SS) were behind Oct 27. How much proof do I want? OK, let's be modest, how about something more than nothing. I mean, is there ANY proof? I am not dismissing the possibility, but when discussing how much proof, usually that means there is SOME.

"We" understand is also funny. This is like all of the "The people" comments around March 1. I am very glad and proud that 90+% of The people were nowhere near the pointless riots on March 1.

Armen Filadelfiatsi said...

Self-styled "reflective,"

That you support the tyranny of SS is the conclusion that we came to. Of course you wouldn't honestly say that about yourself, because it is necessary for you to be seen as an objective observer.

You're bad at what you do, however, and let things slip by.

So far, I've caught you in two lies.

1. You made the claim that LTP was not the leader of the independence movement. But the fact that he got 80% of the vote in '91 proves you are wrong.

2. You describe SS's rule as a "steady evolution," while denigrating LTP's. Hence, you're claim that you don't support SS is false.

You deny both of these, of course, incompetently thinking that that is enough. You don't understand that when a person denies an obvious point, his credibility comes into question. If this were my blog, I'd kick you.

But off of my blog, I suspect that I have already kicked you. I suspect that you post in the character of a "polite," "level-headed" person when you post as "reflective," and you give free reign to your true nasty character when you post anonymously. I can't prove it, of course, but based on your characteristic use of language and repetitive arguments, I suspect that you are the anonymous nuisance that I got rid of.

reflective said...

Aremn - I have no idea what you are talking about. Please re-read my posts. I was asked how I would classify Serj by Mayranoush: I responded that it was stable evolution of the existing system. I don't see how that is an endorsement or an attack on Serj. But you chose to whip yourself into hysterics. I think if people consider this question soberly, most will agree that Serj is an evolution of the existing system; that they defend or attack the current system, that is another matter, and we can all agree or disagree on that.

I have noticed that if someone doesn't agree with you that LTP is the second coming of Jesus himself, you go ballistic. I wasn't even defending Serj and you put words in my mouth to then "catch" me. Funny logic.

I still maintain the Levon Ter-Petrosyan was not pro-independence. Re-read the history: he was against Armenia having its own army (an attribute of independence). He was against Armenia having its own constitution. You can be for these things, or against - that is OK. But let's not change history. He won elections in 91, I agree with that too - -what is so contradictory? What is so repulsive for you about this?

BTW, most Armenians on earth can easily denigrate LTP without thinking about SS. LTP has a track record: you can admire it or hate it, but it is there for people to assess.

I think you are too confused to make judgments on others' blogs. Where have I lied? Much less twice? That you disagree with me, that is fine. I am happy to say I disagree with you too. I think that is the purpose of blogs like these. Or maybe I am wrong and it is forbidden to have difference of opinion.

Armen Filadelfiatsi said...

Բնորոշ չորագլուխ հայ էս: Պակասը չէիմ սպասի:

I don't think we're going to be changing each other's minds at this point.

All the arguments are there; in fact, they're repeated a couple of hundred times. So I'm going to let people decide for themselves, and go do something more productive, like beating my head against the wall.

Anonymous said...

REflective,
do you have a girlfriend?
Or a job? Or a hobby?

I mean we got your points,
and repeating them 100 times is not gonna make us suddenly agree with you, so why don't you try to spend your time on something more worth it.

A guy who advocates healthy life-style

Haik said...

Guys dont you see the reflective is a fascist, why are you waisting your time on it.

It thinks that the brtutal force and the dictatorship are good because they lead to stability.
For It it is stable when people dont have right to speech, thought, movement.
It was very stable during Stalin, Musollini, Hitler, Franco ,- whoever said something againts that stabilty have been shot or sent to concentration camps.
Today's Armenia is not much different.
Whatever you say he wont be changing his point. So dont waist you time. Just ignore and he will dissappear.

Haik said...

Sorry I ment

Whatever you say it wont be changing its point. So dont waist you time. Just ignore and it will dissappear.

Anonymous said...

come on people!
don't you see that it's nice to have reflective here.
without him we would all agree with each other, and the comments section would be very boring.

I wouldn't be surprised to find out that Reflective is actually a pretty normal person and he or she simply plays the Devil's advocate.

Let's be different from Serzhik and Kotcharyan: we can tolerate a differing opinion, can't we?

Anonymous said...

I liked the last comment. Exactly, without reflective this discussion is boring, and there will be no discussion at all.
btw, if we consider classical debate rules, then reflective won the case, all last arguments against him was offense and nothing else.

nazarian said...

Well, reflective is entitled to his opinion and this is a forum for him to express them. He has refrained from hate-speech or vulgarity and thus is welcome to express his views on this blog.