Thursday, April 24, 2008

Embarking on a defeatist path.

The "foreign minister" Eduard Nalbandian has said "It is impossible to imagine the future of the Armenians and Turks without reconciliation".

He said this on April 24! This is serious.

This kind of policies in the past have been labeled as defeatist by the pseudo-president. Why has he decided to embark on this kind of foreign policy now? Does he hope that the Turks will come to his aid when he is about to be kicked out of Armenia?
Էդվարդ Նալբանդյան. "Հայերի եւ թուրքերի ապագան անհնար է պատկերացնել առանց հաշտեցման"

Հայ եւ թուրք ժողովուրդների ապագան անհնար է պատկերացնել առանց հաշտեցման, որի ուղին ոչ թե մոռացությունն է, այլ գիտակցված հիշողությունը: Այդ մասին հայտարարել է Հայաստանի արտգործնախարար Էդվարդ Նալբանդյանը` այսօր Փարիզի քաղաքապետարանում ելույթ ունենալով Հայոց ցեղասպանության հիշատակի ընդունելության ժամանակ:

Շնորհակալություն հայտնելով քաղաքապետ Բերտրան Դելանոեին արդեն ավանդույթ դարձած այդ քաղաքացիական միջոցառման նախաձեռնման կապակցությամբ` Հայաստանի արտգործնախարարը բարձր է գնահատել հետպատերազմյան Եվրոպայի ղեկավարների ցուցաբերած իմաստնությունը եւ քաղաքական խիզախությունը` հանուն խաղաղ եւ համերաշխ ապագայի հաշտեցնելու պատերազմներից ու թշնամանքներից ջլատված Եվրոպայի ժողովուրդներին:

"Մեր հիշողության մեջ հառնում են Ֆրանսուա Միտերանի եւ Հելմուտ Քոլի խորհրդանշական կերպարները, որոնք ձեռք-ձեռքի գլուխ են խոնարհել 1870-ից մինչեւ 1945 թիվն ընկած երեք մահաբեր պատերազմներին զոհ գնացած ֆրանսիացի եւ գերմանացի զինվորների գերեզմանների առջեւ: Իրենց մեծ նախորդների` գեներալ դը Գոլի եւ կանցլեր Ադենաուերի նման, նրանք վաստակեցին իրենց ժողովուրդների երախտիքը եւ առհավետ մտան մարդկության պատմության մեջ", - ասել է Էդվարդ Նալբանդյանը` հավելելով. - "Հույս ունեմ, որ մի օր էլ հայ եւ թուրք ղեկավարները միասին կխոնարհվեն Հայոց ցեղասպանության զոհերի հիշատակի խորհրդանիշի առջեւ, եւ անցյալի ծանր բեռից ազատված մեր ժողովուրդները միասին կկառուցեն ապահով ապագա":
"Մեր ժողովուրդների ապագան անհնար է պատկերացնել առանց հաշտեցման, եւ հաշտության ուղին ոչ թե մոռացությունն է, այլ գիտակցված հիշողությունը, քանի որ միասին շրջելով մեր պատմության սեւ էջը կարելի է վստահությամբ ու հավատով նայել մեր ապագային", - հայտարարել է Հայաստանի արտգործնախարարը: - "Ես հավատում եմ մեր երկու երկրների ղեկավարների եւ ժողովուրդների իմաստնությանը: Հայաստանը բազմիցս հայտնել է իր պատրաստակամությունը` Թուրքիայի հետ հարաբերություններ հաստատել առանց նախապայմանների: Ուզում եմ վերահաստատել, որ Հայաստանը պատրաստ է շարունակելու ջանքեր գործադրել այդ ուղղությամբ լուծումներ գտնելու համար եւ հույս ունի, որ նույն մոտեցումը կցուցաբերի Թուրքիան: Դրանից կշահեն տարածաշրջանի բոլոր երկրները, դրանից կշահեն մեր ժողովուրդները":

Փարիզի քաղաքապետ Բերտրան Դելանոեն հայտարարել է, որ ընդառաջելով Էդվարդ Նալբանդյանի առաջարկին, նրա իսկ կողմից ընտրված վայրում` Փարիզի կենտրոնում գտնվող Կոմիտասի արձանի շրջակա այգին անվանվելու է Երեւանի պուրակ: Քաղաքապետը Հայաստանի արտաքին գործերի նախարարին հրավիրել է միասին բացելու այն:

Ընդունելությանը ներկա էին Ֆրանսիայի պետական, քաղաքական եւ հասարակական գործիչներ, Ֆրանսիայի հայկական, հրեական եւ իսլամական կազմակերպությունների ղեկավարներ, հոգեւոր հարանվանությունների պետեր, մտավորականներ, մոտ հազար ֆրանսահայեր:

Արտգործնախարարության մամուլի եւ տեղեկատվության վարչության փոխանցմամբ` առավոտյան տեղի էր ունեցել Էդվարդ Նալբանդյանի եւ Բերտրան Դելանոեի առանձնազրույցը:

Այսօր ուշ երեկոյան Հայաստանի արտգործնախարարը կվերադառնա Երեւան:

44 comments:

Anonymous said...

There is strong difference in what Nalbandyan said and the deafeated path proposed by LTP back in 1992.

Nalbandyan quote is:
"Հույս ունեմ, որ մի օր էլ հայ եւ թուրք ղեկավարները միասին կխոնարհվեն Հայոց ցեղասպանության զոհերի հիշատակի խորհրդանիշի առջեւ, եւ անցյալի ծանր բեռից ազատված մեր ժողովուրդները միասին կկառուցեն ապահով ապագա" Which directly implies recognition of Genocide by Turkey.

And this was said by LTP in August 1992:

"I am confident as scholar, politician and president of the republic with a mandate from the people that the war will not have any positive consequences for Armenia. The outcome of this war will be the same as in 1920 when Armenia was a state with the territory of 60 000 sq. km. There could be a serious opportunity at the time to create and preserve independent statehood on that territory, had authorities conducted more flexible policy, had they not been blinded by such false assurances as the Treaty of Sevres, had they not trusted USA, England and France and instead had tried to solve problems directly with Turkey. Instead they were after totally unrealistic dreams and lost half of Armenia because Armenia then was at war with three neighbors, Azerbaijan, Turkey and even Georgia, our traditional friend and ally."

reflective said...

I love it - now the LTP turk-lovers (not an insult, just an accurate depiction of the 1 friendly country (together with azerbaijan) that LTP identified during his campaign) are projecting their rhetoric against the current authorities. Shame on LTP for attempting to co-opt April 24 for petty political gain.

Armen Filadelfiatsi said...

This might be what Bruce Tasker has predicted comming to fruition: Kocharian and Sargsyan laying the groundwork for a settling of the Gharabagh issue in such a way that will cause a mass exodus of Armenians out of Gharabagh and into Rob's and Serje's empty apartments in Yerevan, payed for, in part, by the Azeri government.

Meaning: Azerbaijan paying the Kocharian-Sargsyan a $4 billion bribe to gain control of Armenian lands.

Is that the reason why you're here, reflective? Are you a typically corrupt Turkish minion (not an insult, just an accurate question)?

Anonymous said...

Hi reflective

Please don't be harsh on LTP supporters since they were/are and still consider themselves as masters and LTP as an instrument to get rid of you know whom.

That's why majority of LTP supporters disregard LTP ideology. One of the highlighted example is Sefilyan - a true hero - sent in jail by RK.

Its really disgrace that one was forced to chose between LTP and SS.

Now I understand why authorities were afraid to register Raffi, LTP as opposition was relatively favorable choice for them.

reflective said...

Good point anonymous, but anyone who is "using" should think twice in life...the user may in fact be the one being used!!

Armen - as for you, pls continue to revel in the world of the wailings of the WB-mercenary-turned-repenter. And no, thanks for the question, I am not a Turk, nor do I promote best friends of Turks like Nikol(oglu).

tzitzernak said...

The fact is that for years groups like the ARF have called anyone or any armenian government traitorous when they dared to discuss opening a border, negotiating to stop a war, or any other civilized discussion or the wiff of reconciliation with a Turk. Now all of a sudden these things are okay. Good people, individuals, have been slandered by the ARF on personal grounds because they promoted sitting and discussing the situation with Azeris to stop war, which resulted in so many dead and so many refugees on both sides, yet now its what they [and the government they are in] are supporting??
It was before the RK/SS regime that negotations brought forth a cease-fire, one that was considered blasphemous because it involved talking with the dreaded Turk, but that is exactly what has stayed until today. In fact, RK/SS, by not moving forward in that direction (intentionally), arguably have weakened our position and respectability. And now we're they're for reconciliation with Turks.
Is this all tongue in cheek, or is it serious? And if its the former, who's tongue and who's cheek?
One thing is for sure, the tables sure are turned.
Constantly using terms like turk-lover really is a way of reducing things to unrealistic extremes, and hiding behind difficult truths and grey areas.

Armen Filadelfiatsi said...

"reflective,"

What do you mean "mercenary"? When was Bruce Tasker a mercenary? Are you confusing your orifices again?

Anonymous said...

reflective: you're just another pussy too afraid to do anything either way. you'll sit on the sidelines debunking all that passes by. what an arrogant f@ck you are - "anyone who is 'using' should think twice in life...the user may in fact be the one being used!!" - ...wow you're really smart, thanks for such a mind blowing perspective. a regular Socrates.

reflective said...

Armen Fila-

I didn't realize you take discussion of World Bank beneficiaries so personally. And what is with the public interest in others' orifices?

I don't have much faith in people who draw their tax free paychecks off of "developing" (colonializing?) other societies and then crying foul, shock and horror. Part of the problem one day, and then kicking and screaming the next. Go back home and fix your own country, thank you very much.

reflective said...

Thanks anonymous - your insight is astounding. I will now rethink my whole world view.

Armen Filadelfiatsi said...

Well, "reflective," expressing your lack of trust in "foreigners" who are telling the truth in a country that is being eaten inside out by "natives" suggests a xenophobic, self-defeating, in-bread white-trashism, doesn't it.

"reflective" said: "And what is with the public interest in others' orifices?"

Let me tell you, without ado, that the interest is in your orifices only. You're special in that way: you are a Superstar in an ABBA kind of way in orifice confusion. A veritable Borat.

And the interest is akin to, say, the way the Municipal Department of Waste Management of any give city would consider it important to make sure that raw sewage did not enter the drinking water. It's a public service of sorts, you understand.

reflective said...

You are free to colonize another country Filadelfiatsi. If you are so against the people of Armenia in championing self-governance, maybe you can set up the next "Friends of Azerbaijan" exhibit withn Nikol and Bleyan.

And you meant inbred not in-bread, I assume. Something I would think you wouldn't confuse.

spm said...

Anonymous No1. Indeed there is a big difference in your quotes from Nalbandian speech and LTP. What Nalbandian says is a wish, may be even a real one, considering that he does not clarify when this "mi or" is going to happen.

As for LTP's quote it is just a realistic analysis of our history, and conclusion based on that analysis. You may argue that his conclusion was not correct, because in the result of war Armenia liberated Kharabakh and territories surrounding it. But let me remind you that it became possible not only as a result of war, but because parallel to it a flexible diplomacy was conducted, with Russia, Iran, Georgia and even Turkey. A policy in a stark contrast to what happened in 1918-1920.

Let me also remind you that as a result of war Armenia was deprived of heat and light for 2-3 years and somehow the blame for it placed on LTP.

And also speaking about the victory one should project what lies ahead. With current policies of SS, the faith of Kharabakh and Armenia is handed completely to Russians. And I assure you, that there is absolutely no guarantee that Russians are going to protect our interest if it conflicts with their own interests. So the moment Azerbaidjan agrees to hand to Russians the keys of their gas/oil wells (like Kocharian handed them keys of Armenian all energy resources, including Iranian gas pipe) Russians will suddenly discover that Kharabakh is a historic Azeri land. And since Serj's Armenia is in their pocket, they wouldnt even bother to consult with anyone in the world how to settle this affair.

reflective said...

spm - The analogy between 1988 and 1918 is not so good. In 1918 Armenia was an orphaned disease-infested battered remnant of a nation, enduring Genocide and international neglect. We may have survived as a nation because of the policies of 1918, and not despite them (as the anti-ARF soviet-propaganda machine would have us believe.

Also it is not clear to me that Armenia endured years of no light/heat BECAUSE of the war. The blockade was firmly in place because of Azeri (and Turkish, and at times Russian) intentions to wipe the Armenians out of (at least) Karabakh (if not more territory).

These are politically loaded and complex episodes that are difficult to assess (much less compare/contrast) in a few sentences.

Anonymous said...

posted on tzitzernak:

Again came April, and from everywhere and by all possible and impossible forms of communication my dear fellows Armenians have begun their annual lamentations that the Turks killed them (notice, not their ancestors). I do not know what Genocide hysteria will bring in the future, but I know what it has brought today; everywhere we are seen as a pitiful, broken, morally and psychologically oppressed and massacred community, who for just those reasons is not capable of self-govern or democracy.
The reconstruction of events that occurred 100 years ago is a complex process, that is, of course, if you are skilled in the intellectual processes of critique and analysis; if you are not, then it is very easy. You simply allow your teachers and the authorities to drill their ideas into you, and then you have full knowledge. It is natural for the majority to adopt this brainwashing; that is the easy path. After all, who would feel like wasting precious time thinking for themselves when those whom the Politburo has already designated as wise, intelligent and knowledgeable have already spent and are spending much time addressing those issues?
That is not only the illness of us Armenians; it is that of all of humanity, as well. That which is Armenian (and Jewish) by contrast to the Americans, British, Russians, among many others, is that instead of drilling the spirit of victory into our heads, our government drills into our heads the spirit of massacre and genocide. That is done with two purposes: so that we do not notice the genocide taking place at this very moment, the emigration that reaches alarming proportions, the erosion and universal demoralization in the Diaspora and the Homeland. Armenians internationally do not mourn the memories of those killed now by the self-designated mob, or the fate of our fellow Armenians who are killed or degraded daily in Russia, or the emigrants who, preferring every kind of truth and lie try in every way to stay in Europe or the US, opting to endure a multitude of humiliations, but under no circumstances wishing to return to the Homeland, where the population is steadily declining.
We Armenians have consigned to naught and oblivion the tens of thousands of our imprisoned fellow Armenians the world over, a significant number of who are slandered and helpless, while our so-called government has not taken a single step nor is it preparing to take any steps, to protect them.
All are allowed to degrade, imprison, violently assault—spiritually and physically—oppress and to kill Armenians, including our own fellow Armenians, with the exception of the Turks. Directly or indirectly, all of our failures are explained through Turks and Ottomanism, through the damages incurred by their actions, but never as a result of Bolshevism, Communism, KGB-ism, the culture of under-handedness and Oligarchism, tribal geocentricism, fanaticism, and worst of all, through provincial obscurantism and ignorance.
The worldwide pursuit of the century old phantoms to escape the gravest issues and responsibilities has become, at the present time, our only business.

Vahe Avetyan
Washington, D.C.

AN said...

please ignore the reflective he is another narrow minded brainwashed nazi (National Socialist AKA Dashnak).
The most they can do is burn flags or bitch.

reflective said...

an - read my post and yours. who is the one bitching?

Even after all these years, ignorant of their own history, the best the soviet-weaned pioneer pups can do is hate their nation.

Told and believed the tri-color was the Dashnak flag, then learned it was the nation's.

Told and believed that the anthem was the Dashnak anthem, then learned it was ours.

Told and believed that Stalin was Big Papa, that Lenin saved the nation, that Njdeh was a traitor, and so on and so on...

Educating a nation takes generations, but we'll get there one day.

spm said...

Reflective said: "We may have survived as a nation because of the policies of 1918, and not despite them (as the anti-ARF soviet-propaganda machine would have us believe."
what was the policies of 1918? Wage a war with Turkey, Azerbaidjan, Georgia at the same time?
Dashnaks a fraction of RSDRP (or mensheviks as they were called by Lenin) were in such bitter relations with their power yielding bolsheviks, that Ataturk could get money, arms and support from Lenin, but armenians could not. Is this the policy that you mean????

your next passage about lack of light and heat is so illogical that i dont even want to answer.
And there is no wonder you have a difficulty to asses complex and loaded episodes.

reflective said...

spm - My point is that the analogy is flawed. That you wish to find fault with the policies of the Dashnaks (who were supported by 90%+ of the Armenian population) is your prerogative. Lenin very quickly showed his true colors to the Armenian nation. Reading 1st hand accounts by Vratzian or the English language derivative by Richard Hovhanissian is a good start to educate yourself beyond seeing everything through Red (soviet) lenses.

spm said...

anonymous from tzitzernak, there is sense in what you saying, but your assessment is one sided.
First of all the Genocide has happened and it is part of our history. I agree, it is almost as shamefull for us, who were massacred often as ships, as it is for turks who did that. But lessons should be learned from the past, not to repeat it i the future. Let us consider what is happening now. Armenians created a powerfull diaspora in Russia after demise of USSR. They naturally concentrated in large cities, primarily Moscow, but also spread all over Russia is smaller numbers. They often economically very successful and envied by the local russian population. Our intellectuals have moved to Russia in large numbers and armenian cultural life in Moscow is on the rise. I bet not many armenians draw parallels with Ottoman Empire... Constantinople. Even regular and increasing number of murders of armenian nationals do not remind them of our not so distant history. Neither community in Russia, nor Armenian government do not do anything substantial to protest the killings or prevent them. Armenia is the only friendly republic of Russia in the Caucasus, yet armenian nationals are the most targeted by nationalistic russians (remember armenian minority in Ottoman Empire was the most fidel and trusted, Armenians supported Young Turks in their power struggle and helped them to reach it). Turks didnt kill all Armenian population of Anatolia overnight, they were moving gradually from village to village. Yet most Armenians were sitting in their homes doing nothing, because each of them believed that the tragedy would not touch them personally. One relied on his gold to bribe out, others on their connections with influential turks. They all were wiped out. The situation is very similar in Russia. Now, taking account the epoch, ethnic and religious considerations, I do not think Russians will embark in such a mass massacres as the turks did. But, I do not understand how in these situation, Armenian government keeps complete silence and indifference and continues to cede more and more to Russian influence. Our leaders infuse not only eternal hatred to turks, but also eternal submission to Russians as guarantors of our security.

Anonymous said...

good headline, Nazarian!

It's hard to believe how easily some people can be brainwashed by
TV and propaganda.
When Levon says we need to have a dialogue, it is defeatism, when Serzhik says "Aghdam is not our homeland", it is patriotism...

To victims of serzhist brainwashing:

Open your eyes!
Try to qurestion the assumptions that have been hammered into your heads!

You guys are much smarter than Serzhik and Robik, why are you letting these idiots fool you?

All they care about is their money, the don't give a dam about Armenia, or Genocide or Karabakh, they know that talking about these things is a way of extracting money from the Diaspora, that's it!

spm said...

Reflective, I do not wear soviet lenses. And I do not need to know details to judge by the results.
What were true colors of Lenin? What Lenin had in contra to armenians and in favor of turks???? Nothing. What you saying is bullshit. Lenin wanted to do a "world-wide revolution". He was evil, but he was who had the power by 1918. Armenian dashnaks were preventing Lenin to proceed with his maniacal plans of world revolution. Meanwhile Ataturk went to Moscow and pledged his support to Lenin and his cause. Mind you, that Dashnaks were socialists, Lenins cousins by ideology, while Ataturk was very far from being a socialist. But he was a sly diplomat, while dashnaks were dumb asses.

Take case of Georgia. Georgia in 18 was also governed by menshevics a party to which dashnaks were affiliated. Yet, the first republic was in war with Georgia, instead of securing its rear to be able to fight turks. I don't want to know why and how dashnaks could not deal with Georgians at that time. I am sure they were as difficult then as Zviad Gamsakhurdia was in 1991. Yet, this time our leader(s) turned out a little smarter and conflict with Georgia was prevented. Armenia actually helped to end the terrible civil war in Georgia. And the second republic survived. It did not become failed state as in 1918, or as a Georgia in 90's.

We should be grateful to LTP for those first 2-3 critical years of establishing the state, and preventing dashnaks from coming to power and once again wrecking the Armenian statehood.

Anonymous said...

to the 1st anonymous:

1. everyone makes mistakes, including Levon, yes he was wrong when he was saying this in 1992,
does it mean he was always wrong in everything, and he is wrong now?

2. The bible says "don't look at words, look at deeds".
In spite of the "defeatist" rhetoric of Levon in 1992, in the end we won the war.

Anonymous said...

One more thing:

Where were Robert and Serzh in August 1992? They were members of the board of the Armenian National movement, and Levon's emissaries in Karabakh, so it means they agreed with every single word Levon said then.
If you say they didn't agree, please provide me a statement from Robert Kotcharyan or Serzh Sarkissian, made during the years 1992-1997, in which they disagree with Levon, or question his view,
or criticize him.
You won't be able to find it !!!

Anonymous said...

4. the whole idea of comparing what was said in 1992 to what was said in 2008 is weird!

why don't you compare what Aristotle said about origins of life in 4th century BC to the latest findings of genetic engineering?

Of course Aristotle is gonna look like an idiot...

1992 was a completely different period, none of the Armenian statemen had any experience of governing an independent country, and yes, they made a lot of mistakes, which is very sad, but natural...

reflective said...

Your analogies are incredibly flawed. Let me try and speak your language: during 1918-1920, the Armenian population on the territory of independent Armenia grew.

During the 2-3 years catastrophic rule by LTP your beloved leader, Armenian population shrank at a rate only rivaled by the Genocide.

Thank god he is now a marginalized ego-maniac who has no future.

reflective said...

Note: My last post was directed at spm (several anonymous posts appeared fast).

spm said...

Reflective, how the population grew?
do yo mean that macho dashnaks breed better than pussy liberals? Or you mean that refugees escaping the turkish Armenia flocked into russian Armenia? May be you mean that a shrinking by size country, as a result of dashnak policies, was too small for remaining alive Armenians?????
Or you mean that people now under Serj coalition government with dashnaks are so happy, that they do not want to leave Armenia anymore?

spm said...

one more thing Reflective, stop changing the topic each time you dont have arguments

reflective said...

spm, I am just using your argumentation...when LTP had problems it was "boo hoo because of the war". When things were bad in 1918 it was because of "FascistNaziTotalitarianDashnak idiocy."

I don't buy it. And neither does any non-Bolshevik driven historiographer.

reflective said...

Also stop viewing the Dashnaks as some kind of enemy. I am not and never have been a Dashnak, though you will not believe me.

I cannot understand anyone who cheers when the church is split, when Dashnaks are banned from Armenia, or when new artificial rifts are created by our nations enemies.

Leave these petty revenge games behind, please.

Anonymous said...

From anonymous #1

1. I gave comparison only for one reason, to show the double standard used by nazarian in manipulatevly putting a headline diffrent from context and defaming Nalbandian in an unfair way.

2. Now the discusion turned into LTP/SS/RK/Dashnak historiography. Hey, what about Nalbandian?

3. Thanks that anonyouse realized the mistake of LTP in 1992. However you put that ///1992 was a completely different period, none of the Armenian statemen had any experience of governing an independent country, and yes, they made a lot of mistakes, which is very sad, but natural.../// The problem is that LTP still thinks the same, he started his campaign right from the very point in October 2007 as it was put in 1992.

4. Reading so many points I canai see a classical stereotypical dynamics. It is hard to break and I wll not try. However sterotypes are the first sign of dvision between us-them (us - hhsh 1992, them dashnaks 1918), etc. You may desagree with different parts of society, critisize, debate, etc. But all of us or "us" and there is no "them" in our society.

5. I was surprised once when learned about Soviet occupation/oppression musium in Georgia. I asked a young lady about orjonikidze and other georgian bolsheviks. And she said -they are not Georgians. Now I see similar division in our nation.

6. And Nazarian, please delete the comment of Armenia-traitor Avetyan. A person who փախել է ռազմի դաշտից և Ադրբեջանցիների մոտ մինչև հիմա էլ հպարտանում է այդ փաստով:

spm said...

I dont say dashnaks are enemies, neither seek revenge. I am saying that the 2nd republic was more successful. The statehood was established! The territory was gained. Minimal blood was spilled.

Its all in big contrast to the experience of the first republic. And if you analyze objectively, you will see that apart form historic realities, one of the big reasons of dashnaks failure in 1920 was nationalistic narrowmlndness, which leads to lack of flexibility.

you/we are committing this error again today declaring turks eternal enemy and russian eternal patron. Think of it.

Anonymous said...

hi spm

now, we are getting to the point. Yes, I totally agree with you that the third republic is golden age compared with Armenian last 700 years of history.

However, we should learn from history better, and not making superficial analyses. Go and read debates between dashnaks and ramgavars in 1918, or read the fight and misunderstanding between bolshevik and non-bolshevik armenians, etc.

You call "error again declaring turks eternal enemy and russian eternal patron"

That's not the great mistake which we don't learn: The bigest mistake is dividing the nation when two [minority] camps call themselves eternal enemies [to the nation] and the majority was/is forced to chose from these two camps.

Another problem is the another extreme: being ready to negotiate with turks and azeris but putting conditions on internal negoatiations.

When I read excerpts from Hovhannisyan book on Armenia's first republic I realized a) how the Soviet revisionism changed history and b) how it is difficult to assess the situation back in 1918, it was really hard time. And it was not only a problem with external players /mauzerists, blame, class problems, big game(s), etc, etc/ The only person who turned right for that period is Nzhdeh.

To devalue the intelegentsia type of thinking for that period Nzdeh game ony one quote

"The archimedes was killed by a soldier"-history

LTP was representaive of that time intelegentsia back in 1992, his brain couldn't accept any chance to win NKR war.

PS
This discussion may go and go. IMHO The main problem is we don't know which source of information discussants are using here. If that is superficial information and we have here a sophism type discussion, its better to stop now. In discussions I witnessed many clever Armenians who are deniaists even without realizing it - they never read what is denialism and which forms it take.

PPS
I blame also dashnaks for this, they charge emotionaly the youth re Genocide without transfering proper knowledge. And similar stupidity happens now, youth doesn't know the story of NKR war, who were the players, when it started, etc.

Anonymous said...

Forgot to say to last pps.
Youth doesn;t know who is karabakhtsi, and was the meaning back in 1988; and they framed and stereotyped it with only two persons -RK/SS. And LTP was happy to manipulate with this stereotype.
You may argue, that thre is no hatred towards karabakhtsis. I agree, but at the same time disagree. Ratinally they may not hate but emotianaly majority have been charged with. This issue of karabakhatsi hatre should be discussed internaly within LTP team. The day I see Serzh Sargsyani klan instead of Serzh Sargsyani Gharabaghyan klan, I will realize that such discussion was held and proper decision was taken. God bless our united future and the wisdom of our nation.

Anonymous said...

Anonymous N 1,

You preferred to ignore my points and questions

Particularly
1. you ignored my point that Robert and Serzh were prominent HHSH members since 1991 to 1997.
The fact that Serzh has made "defetaist" statements recently ("Aghdam is not our homeland", "we need to seek a way forward with Turkey") can be interpreted in the same way as you interpret Levon's words - that Serzh's position hasn't changed since he was a HHSH member
2. You ignored my point about the final result of the war in 1994, the war was won and Levon was the president. This is a fact, and you didn't say anything about that
3. You ignored my request to provide a single example of Serzh and Robert disagreeing with Levon before 1998. Of course there's none, but you could at least say something about that

Please respond to my points, instead of ignoring or misinterpeting them

p.s. of course, Levon makes mistakes, no one even argues about that, he's not the pope of Rome after all, Serzhik and Robert are a great evidence of that.

Anonymous said...

reflective: again you show your shortsightedness in regard to Avetyan. traitor or no (and what happened to your comment that their is only 'us' no 'them'...?), the words of Avetyan are right on. Armenians need to look within instead of blaming always 'the other' and never themselves.

have you made a single comment praising those ordinary people (by and large) who are fighting for an Armenia to be proud of or is the only thing you see how 'brainwashed' they are, how stupid, how ..., how....

where's the love? where's this so called reflectiveness of yours?

[and now reflective's ubiquitous 'something-about-ltp-did-this' response...]

Anonymous said...

reflective, "Njdeh was a traitor" might have been taught by the soviets along with alot of other stuffs. but didn't Njdeh curse Dashnaks in his last years? and Andranik? didn't you sell your country to the russians?

ltp banned you because you have always wanted Armenia without Armenians. your angry comment let your true tri-colors come through.

come here from your LA comfort and live in Jaleeza for half a day and then tell me how protesting for basic freedom is traitorous.

why do you hate us? my Grandmother ran TO Armenia and suffered genocide her entire life. maybe she should have ran with yours to France and then i too could sit back and be so reflective on us poor ignorant 'pups'.

nazarian said...

Please keep the comments without personal insults. There are a lot of value added comments and I would hate if they got deleted because such a simple thing as avoiding insults was overlooked.

Anonymous said...

///You preferred to ignore my points and questions///

Oh no, I said that the discussion changed from defaming Nalbandian into something different, but if you wish ...

///1. you ignored my point that Robert and Serzh were prominent HHSH members since 1991 to 1997.///

Yes, and that's why I don't accept policies of HHSH and Robert and Serzh. btw, they dissassociated themselves from HHSH long ago and they were not prominent members.
Robert and Serzhik are pragmatic players that's why I don't discuss their ideology, there is none.


///The fact that Serzh has made "defetaist" statements recently ("Aghdam is not our homeland", "we need to seek a way forward with Turkey") can be interpreted in the same way as you interpret Levon's words - that Serzh's position hasn't changed since he was a HHSH member////

There is huge difference. Serzh is pragmatist and he said the words about Aghdam as a try to sell out NKR solution to the people. Something which any Government will try whenever there is solution. If situation requires to say the opposite, believe me, Serzh will be the first to announce it. This is classical comsomol way of life and career.
LTP has developed ideology and advocates it, and I argue against this ideology.


///2. You ignored my point about the final result of the war in 1994, the war was won and Levon was the president. This is a fact, and you didn't say anything about that///

I was given question once by the journalist on who won the war, and I said the people. LTP is the first president and it was his time the war was won. As such LTP will be in our next century history books, and I doubt that RK will be there. However, this doesn't change my mind re LTP bankrupt ideology.

Now about ceasefire and drawing lines between 1918-20 and 1994. Ceasifire was a result of consequentive wins over Azerbaijan, when a weak Azerbaijan [who was rejecting prior attempts] was asking of ceasefire. Ceasefire is not a result of shaking hands between Az and Arm. While LTP wants to become a second Chemberlen, shake hands without any backing. blind trust never works in IR.


///3. You ignored my request to provide a single example of Serzh and Robert disagreeing with Levon before 1998. Of course there's none, but you could at least say something about that///

RK and SS are different in this matter. RK disagreed with LTP several times during the war and after it, when he was NKR president. However, both are comsomols and comsomols never disagree with their masters.


////Please respond to my points, instead of ignoring or misinterpeting them////


Did I misinterpret anything?

///p.s. of course, Levon makes mistakes, no one even argues about that, he's not the pope of Rome after all, Serzhik and Robert are a great evidence of that.///

And this the stereotype I was talking about. You are ready to accept that LTP make mistakes, but the same rule is not applying to Serzh [re Aghdam]. I understand why, Serzh is a Tatar-Monghol otar Gharabaghtsi criminal.

PS
The stereotyping is dangerous and the last posts are proof for it. People assumed that I live in LA? that I am Dashnak? my words were assigned to reflective? etc.

Anonymous said...

brother, RK and SS ORDERED THE ARMY TO SHOOT RANDOMLY AT ITS OWN UNARMED PEOPLE. no one in our history has done that, so YES we're willing to accept ltp's mistakes over a history-making murderer.

what is your end game? will you accept these thugs who killed your brothers and sisters or not. if not, and God help you that is your choice, then you are amongst the 'opposition'.

this is in no way synonomous with LTP or Nikol or whoever. BUT, like it or not, regardless or their motivations, the HHsH group does however write very well and its a real shame that the authors are so controversial - the message in the writings (beyond the petty politics found in some) applies to all of us who are not an oligarch or cousin of the regime.

also, it's unimportant if you live in Los or Lyon or whether you are an actual Tashnag member or not. the point is the same: you do not live in Armenia and are able to push an academic high-level philosophy on the people who do remain here to live and die. 'Should' is such an easy word to say from afar.

Anonymous said...

Hi bro

I live in Armenia and I have friends from many "camps", and they are all good people regardless of their political affiliation or bind.

The main stereotypical thinking should be stopped. You said "applies to all of us who are not an oligarch or cousin of the regime." this is a clear us-them division which I am talking about.

The so called opposition is ready to be united against RK/SS but happy to divide the nation against Turks and Azeris. This is something which I do not understand.

My position is clear, I fight the system and I do whatever I can to change it. LTP made it clear that he will be happy to work with Armenian oligarchs /especially dodi gago/ but refuses to work with gharabaghtsi oligarchs ??!

I don't want to have any oligarch regardless of their geographic birth.

LTP made it clear that Jhangiryan, Manvel and other thugs are good while current prosecutor, head of police, etc are evil. For me all of them are harming the nation and I will fight with that disease. I don't buy in the selective amnesia and will never forget who were Jhangiryan, Manvel and current flan-fstans including SS and RK.

This is the real story which makes me sad. I unserstand that people are hopeless and are ready to go even with evil to change RK/SS. But chosen means are amoral.

I've got clear message from LTP. Let's get rid of "Ghrabaghyan" criminal system, and replace it with "non-Gharabaghyan" criminal -system.

Anonymous said...

Bro, 100% true.

however, this is not an academbic exercise, choices must be made and there are only two choices:

1. status quo which means at best trusting that SS will look at the blood on his hands and reform himself and the government out of guilt OR

2. support the opposition (the people not the leaders) with the hope of using that energy and youth to force ltp and others to not simply fall back to the olden days.

no doubt the opposition leadership and many hanger-ons just want their oligarchs in charge so they can get back to raping and pillaging in the same way RK/SS have (and ltp did earlier). this is the sad state of 'winner take all' politics.

But the big difference is that only in the opposition do you have energized groups of youth, ngos, and other modern forward-thinking citizens with the intention of truly changing things. of course, you might have that in the status quo groups, but we haven't even seen any minor progress in the last decade.

so, arguing that sticking with the status quo and stability will eventually bring us 'there' is really risky at best. we are one factory away from being completely sold to Russia. right or wrong, the irony is that with the Turk border closed and no fresh air allowed in we are sealing are coffin. and will soon cease to exist as a nation under the status quo.

you don't have to underestimate your brothers and sisters who are protesting and in fact you can be proud of them, because you know how difficult it would be to protest anything here, and with love you can join them and make sure they have the backing and support needed to keep on the right track and not give in the the corrupt people that will eventually try to compromise them.

join and help make the honest people the majority! we all want the same thing.

reflective said...

i would rephrase the choices:

1) push for constructive change from within (already several positive signs from the new government)

2) cultivate new leaders in the opposition who do not have blood on their hands like LTP and who are pro-democracy, anti-oligarch, and have a message other than destruction