Tuesday, March 25, 2008

Aram Sargsian charged

This is starting to look more and more like Soviet Union. The number of arrested people continues to grow. Very soon Armenia is going to have a problem with available space in the prisons.

I just learned that Aram Sargsian, a former presidential candidate and the chairman of the Republic party, has been charged for attempted unlawful overturn of power. I wonder what the number of the political prisoners is now.

The recklessness of Serj Sargsian is endangering the very existence of the independent Armenia.

36 comments:

artmika said...

Is he got arrested? Are you sure?

Because till late evening, and as Radio Liberty reported, he was charged but "was not taken into custody, with prosecutors only having him sign a pledge not to leave Armenia pending investigation"

nazarian said...

You are right. I fixed the title.

Anonymous said...

Nazarian jan, even in Brejnev's era Demirchian managed to behave in much more decent way than this little piece of shit. I guess Aliev is Serj's example of statesman, after all that is what he grew up seeing.

sorry for anonymous, I dont happen to have any of the identifiers below. GT

reflective said...

Thank God they arrested this caustic destroyer. He was clamoring for destruction of the state. Isn't that sufficient? Anyone who clamors for destruction of the state gets what he deserves, even if you don't like Serj, or Rob or Bob or Frank or Peter.

The state is different from the government, and it is something that a village idiot like Aram cannot comprehend.

spm said...

reflective, agreed. He should not be there on the first place. But since someone killed Aram's brother so conveniently for Robert, he appointed the village idiot as prime minister. Make no mistakes, Robert is very sly and smart person. The question is do we want a smart and sly person rip our country off.

Anonymous said...

I think next should be Stepan Demirchyan. by april 9 all who supported Levon will found themselves in prison. But can you imagine what could happen on April 24? Should the authorities allow this public walking towards Tsitsernakaberd?

parisan said...

//The number of arrested people continues to grow.//

a well-informed source say they are more than 500 prisonners already ; in some places, they have to share their beds in the cells.

By the way, your feed is slower than most to load in Google Reader. Any idea why?

nazarian said...

parisan, it's probably because of the length of the posts - there are no scripts or things like that except for the hit counter and Google ads. I have no control over the speed as the blog is hosted on the Google servers.

nazarian said...

reflector, the state has become a banditocracy. I'm sure even you wouldn't want to come in contact with the system. After you get your ass wooped once or twice, I'm sure you would change your tune.

Fortunately for you, the most intimate contact you have had with Armenia is trying to find it on the map.

reflective said...

Wrong, Nazarian.

Wrong assumptions, wrong conclusion.

By the way, as an LTP supporter, would you characterize Armenia under LTP as a banditocracy (i think you mean kleptocracy)?

I ask because you say the Armenian state "has become" one...I say, when was it not?

Anonymous said...

reflective, dear, how do you explain ten year olds being interrogated and made write and sigh papers by Armenian police. Isn't it your state structure doing it?

nazarian said...

reflector, I am not an LTP supporter even though I support him now and the Movement he leads. Had it been another leader I would have supported it as well. This is a national cause if you haven't realized it yet and is not about figureheads any more.

If you are interested in my opinion about the 7 years that LTP was the president, you can check my posts for the time frame prior to February 20. I have been critical of the banning of ARF-D (he should have given them a couple of ministerial posts and they would have been docile) and the conduct of the 1996 elections.

But that's immaterial now and is in the past. I am looking at the present and the direction Armenia has taken into the future, and I don't like it.

BTW, kleptocracy does not describe the nature of the current Armenian government as it only describes thieves and robbers. Banditocracy is more descriptive - they not only steal but they murder people as well.

reflective said...

Nazarian, sorry but I do not buy this sensationalism. I think it has for 17 (88?, maybe 600 is more accurate) been about working to promote a national cause. I think what we have now is simply a (too) slow evolution. I don't think that Armenia is particularly worse off now than 15 years ago, though I think this is hard to prove (or prove the opposite).

If you don't like the direction Armenia is moving in, then support someone you believe in. I think it IS about LTP and others. We cannot hold the authorities accountable, and then simply claim that since there are 30k (or even 300k) dissatisfied people that this gives us some moral mandate to speak on behalf of "the nation" or "the people."

It seems to me that most people in Armenia are realists, and as bad as the authorities are, they for many are better than the alternatives. Alert to the Armenian nation: cultivate (not recycle) better leaders!!

spm said...

reflective, LTP was not particularly democratic figure, everyone agrees with that. But what differs current regime form LTP is that these two hold personally in their hands all political and economical power. They own the goddamn place, and they are ruthless. LTP never was an oligarch himself and power was distributed among his associates, who finally took him down.
But agian, if there was any other viable opposition candidate, LTP would not have chance to come back or attract so many supporters. The horrific truth is, that after neutralizing him RM/SS will not have any counterbalance and they will not allow appearance of alternative for years to come.

reflective said...

SPM:

Telman, Grzo, Armentel Monopoly, commodities monopolistic control, Vano, diasporan investors=persona not grata and so on, and so on, and so on.

Let's not rewrite history. My memory is not as bad as some want it to be.

Anonymous said...

Reflector, as an apologist for the current regime you seem to have a very primitive argument which basically consists of beating a dead horse. Your argument is that LTP was bad. This is the same, old, tired argument made by the authorities which consists of reminding the people of how bad things were in the early 1990s.

Don't you have anything new to say? We have heard it all before. The horse is dead, bury it and get a new argument. Along that, please open your eyes and try to see the unfolding repression for what it is.

Anonymous said...

Sorry I meant to say Reflective not Reflector...

spm said...

Reflective, Telman was a professional, who was a manager of a large enterprise before his brother became a President. And he probably knew a thing or to how to run things. And I dont think he became so rich to become a real estate developer in LA, as Serj's disgraceful brother who was a bus driver in previous life and now is multimilioner INVESTOR in USA.

reflective said...

spm, this is going to get funny - So you wish to defend the oligarch structure put in place by LTP?

How all business coming into Armenia had to be funnelled through Telman (in contrast to now, with relatively large amounts of hi-tech FDI, import-substitution, tourism investment) that is not linked to the govt?

How Telman was selling electricity to TURKS while your sisters and mothers froze in maternity wards?

How Vano had a greater iron fist on the business climate of Armenia than has been seen since?

How LTP/Vano saw mass emigration as a natural and positive devlopment for Armenia as hundreds of thousands fled the country for reasons of hopelessness?

Defending LTP/Telman while insulting the present authorities is pure hypocrasy.

I note that it is sad that many of these same phenomena remain in Armenia, though thankfully to a much less degree. I am not an apologist for evils in society today. However, I will not rewrite the horror-show history of the early 90s.

Anonymous said...

Dear Reflective, Before you make proclamations that there are less repressions (i.e., lesser degree) today than before, perhaps you could reflect on the fact that October 27 occurred during the rule of the current regime. Was that not the biggest horror show (to use your phrase) of post-Soviet Armenian history?

Or, how do you explain 1 March? Was that too not a 'horror show'?

No one is saying the LTP administration was flawless and without many faults- far from it!! But please get over your one-sided view of Armenia's past and try to see things in a more objective light. Otherwise your ranting g about Telman, while very conveniently ignoring Setrak Kocharian's or Sashik Sargsyan's business interests demonstrate, as I said before, that you are simply beating a dead horse.
Come on, try a little bit harder.

reflective said...

Actually, I am not beating a dead horse. On this blog, commentators can perpetually villify the current authorities and talk about how we have slipped into the dark ages.

Convenient memory erasing is the only way to get to that level.

When were "the good ole days" of democracy? When Yerevan's Mayor was gunned down? (during LTP regime) When the chief prosecutor was gunned down (during LTP's regime) etc??

My point in bringing up the past you are so desparate to ignore, is that it is wrong to glorify the horrid past while villifying the current evils.

Let's call a spade a spade. Is there a single voice of reason on these cult-like pro-LTP media mouthpieces that state that Pashinyan's lies are destructive to Armenian society? Any critique at all of revving up the mob to arm themselves? Any admission of at least some guilt in the events and process leasing up to March 1?

As long as this one-sided (dis)info waterfall continues, I feel obligated to shed some alternative light. Aylntranqi aylntranq :)

How can people complain about H1's extreme one-sidedness when they are guilty of the same? How can they complain about this or that oligarch when stading next to Oligarch Mother-Hen LTP himself?

How can people complain about lack of equal rights of the opposition when it was LTP who shut down opposition parties and sending tanks into the streets against peaceful protestors.

Again, pls do not misread this as a defense of the authorities, which people who see only black and white are prone to do. I am not condoning the style/actions of the authorities today.

But hypocrasy, lies, and the rewriting of history undermine what could be a good argument.

Anonymous said...

It's a pity you weren't present at Serj's post election rally.You could have used a better wording to defend the clan. You are not able to understand the simplest thing the grassroots know today. LTP is our misttake and we have forgiven him hoping for the better while the present clan is alien to us.

reflective said...

Us vs. them.

Hate them if they are not like you. Just listen to their aktsents!

Mongol-Tatars.

Drive out the invaders!

Hate hate - destroy the state!!!

Anonymous said...

its funny how some diaspora armenians (mostly hating tashnags)live in free and democratic countries like USA and cherish and support at the same time, dictatorship in Armenia. This shows how much little their political thinking has evolved since the days of Ottomans...i know the reason for this anti-levon hysteria is personal and factional, its made in tashnaq, which along with other fascist ideologies of tashnag has proven to be poisoning our lives since 1915...

those poor diaspora armenians who still think according to ottoman mentality, believe that dictatorship is usual for Armenia, as long as their petty invetsments in real estare are safe, and they are happy by giving their $10 every year on telethon,

those armenians have never lived in Armenia, and never will, their fathers did not live in Armenia, and neither will their children...but they think they have the moral right to dictate on hayasdantsi who to chose as their leader and what kind of foreign policy to run..but at the same time they sit and watch how the regime kills, beats and jails its own citizens by the 1000s.

well let me tell me you reflective or whatever u want to reflect..your patriotism sucks, its fake, self-centered, superficial , u care more about DEAD armenians 100 years ago than 3 million LIVE armenians living in Armenia nowadays, shame on you...

Anonymous said...

the chief prosecutor was killed during kocharyan's time, and the only (last) witness Aghvan Hovsepyan was appointed in his place by kocharyan

LTP was not a dictator, the power was distributed and balanced, there was vazgen Sargsyan, head of Parliament, prime minister (manoukyan, bakradyan) had a say in economic policies,Interiro Ministry and its head were powerful as well, this type of state rule is not similar at all to current pyramid of dictatorship

LTP left the power peacefully and without anything to fear, and without businesses, real estate and billions and casinos, all he has is the big house in dzidzernagapert, and some money that he declared unlike serge sargsyan...

and he supported no oligarchy, his brother was a professional and already in big business,
no monoplies were established during his time, he did not creat dodi gagos, lfik samo's and did not ally himself with mafia gangs and militias like the current regime

and Vano (that u r fond of bashing like a parrot) did a good job by eliminating the criminal gangs, thanks to him, Armenia became one of the few ex USSR republics that did not have state-organized crime alliance and no cetrifugal forces..thanks to sargsyan

LTP is a real independence man, he did not bow down to russian hegemony, he believed in alliance but not master and servant relationship like the serge-kochar now are doing by turning Armenia into a russian colony

in fact, there were many achievements, independence, liberalization of economy, karabagh war victory and the diplomatic victory aligning with military success, establishment of foreign policy and professional foreign ministry,support given to armenian church, establishment of all-armenia fund, etc

demonizing levon will only make him more popular, hating him for your petty "tashnag-related reasons"" will not justify at all your apologist attitude regarding the current criminal regime, u have to admit LTP is a smart leader and good diplomat and if given free hand, can take Armenia out of its isolation

reflective said...

Anono - your last post is so full of inaccuracies, I will not even go through it line by line, as most readers will simply brush you off as the son of some HHSh daddy who melted down one of the countless factories to sell the scrap metal to Turks and Iranians, so you could bribe your way out of Armenia and collect welfare in Hollywood.

Go ahead and enshrine Vano in your Hall of Democracy Fame. Soon the whole family will be reunited.

Anonymous said...

Reflective,
Don't turn the blog into a fight of stupid words. I am not going to answer you further, just one remark to your us vs them. How you, a self-proclaimed defender of democratic values, dare say Aram is a village idiot, us vs them?
Of course his brother was short -sighted enough to bring the two hillbilly monsters from K to stab him in the back later.

Anonymous said...

Anonymous, don't turn this blog into a gay parade.

spm said...

Reflective, dont you notice that throughout the "discussion" we (you probably call us traitors) admit that LTP did numerous errors, was not and is not a example of democracy and also his one eye is not looking in the same direction as the other. Unlike us (traitors) you never said a critical word about current regime. I wonder if you consider them PERFECT?

Anonymous said...

Thanks to SPM.
You really voiced what a lot of ppl are trying to explain to our extremist Reflexes (misspelling is deliberates whose brain is blocked with too much love to the existeng regime.

reflective said...

Actually, I often talk about problems that LTP created that are perpetuated by current authorities.

But please point me to one example of an admission of a lie/mistake by radical oppositionists today (after LTP awoke from his 10 year vacation).

Who here can honestly tell me that Pashinyan doesn't deliberately lie in his writings? That LTP is sowing hatred? That LTP is hate-mongering and used ethnic attacks and invective during the pre- and post-election campaign (mongol tatars) etc.

This is not about defending the authorities for me. This is about putting an end to hate-campaigning by those who unwillingly (many of the masses) or purposefully (many of the organizers) are trying to destroy society through raciost hate, lies, disinformation, and divisiveness.

And, sorry, as guilty the authorities may be in this campaign, in does not justify sins committed or supported by you. In the same vein, I have never supported the authorities one-sided media coverage, or a host of other ills. Apologies if I do not fit into your lazy and convenient "if you are not with us, you are a traitor" boolean mentality.

spm said...

R, check out please my comment about "if you are not with us, you are a traitor" in the post after April 9 parade. It is amazing how western educated people can be easily fooled by declarative democracy of current regime. I guess diasporan Armenians really need to learn how to live in present time not past. We know what Levon did in 1996! We know what turks did in 1915. We know very well. But we need to approach historical events within the reality of PRESENT DAY. In 1996 Levon betrayed democratic principles, and put army on the streets and beat people. RK and SS before 1996 were excellent functionaries doing their job pretty well. However now it is 2008!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Levon had 10 years to think about what happened in 1996. RK and SS in that period of time converted into tyranny that threatens our independence. They would hand to russians anything to save their ass and the chair they sit on. And they killed our people. For whatever reason.

reflective said...

I am not talking about all the sins of LTP pre-96 (that would require too much space given the collective amnesia of the cult).

I am talking about hate-mongering, racist invective, nation-dividing rhetoric of LTP in 2008.

He is no leader of anything positive. He leads through hate, revenge, and division.

Armenia needs none of that.

Find a new leader to rally around.

mayranoush said...

Reflective, you talk about collective amnesia, but I see your inability to explain away the current repressions and the existence of powerful, nepotistic networks (Sashik, Setrak, etc.) as blindness.

I am sure you won't respond, you'll just go on and on and on about Vano and Telman.

Also, before you accuse me of being a pro-LTP or the son of some HHSh (which I am not), please recognize that not everyone who raises questions about the current regime is pro-LTP or pro-HHSh. Some of us are simply pro-liberty and justice and we want to see a better Armenia. Not one where people are afraid to speak out for fear that they will either be arrested or removed from their posts.

The continuing arrests and detentions are not something which speak highly of this regime.

Anonymous said...

Yes, happens...

Anonymous said...

I apologise, but, in my opinion, you are not right. I suggest it to discuss. Write to me in PM.