Monday, September 15, 2008

Down 4.42% ... 5 more minutes left.

I wonder how many people will commit suicide today.

19 comments:

spm said...

he he, it certainly is not going to stop there. When people start to withdraw like crazy, even the most reliable banks may fell. Oil is falling too, so Russia hardly will be celebrating the fall of USA. I wonder if Sarah Palin can save this country.

Ani said...

"Neither a borrower nor a lender be." Oops! Wrong comment for someone in the banking industry!

The Russian stock market has plummeted since the August "incident". And McCain's rose-colored glasses today apparently didn't help things either:

http://tinyurl.com/6o8as5

Did McCain economy gaffe prompt a correction?

Republican maintains conditions are 'fundamentally strong' despite meltdown

By Russ Britt, MarketWatch

On a day when Wall Street was melting down, Republican Sen. John McCain insisted Monday that the nation's economy was "fundamentally strong," drawing criticism from Democratic leaders and his opponent for the presidency, Sen. Barack Obama.
While the Obama camp talked of how the bankruptcy of Lehman Brothers Holdings and selloff of Merrill Lynch posed a threat to the nation's economy, McCain initially told supporters in a speech in Jacksonville, Fla., that while there was trouble on Wall Street, the nation's economy was still strong.
[...]
Commenting on the financial market's troubles, McCain initially said: "You know that there's been tremendous turmoil in our financial markets and Wall Street. And it is, it's - people are frightened by these events. Our economy, I think, still, the fundamentals of our economy are strong but these are very, very difficult times. And I promise you, we will never put America in this position again. We will clean up Wall Street. We will reform government." (blah blah blah guns creationism blah)

Haik said...

The capitalistic corrupt system. 2-3 years ago these fat cats were making billions of profits and enjoying multimillion bonuses. Greed is uncontrollable. And now when the time came to face the consequences it is us the taxpayers who bail them out.

Die fetten Jahre sind vorbei (the fat years are over, or the days of plenty are numbered).

spm said...

hayk karoxa politruk eq exel naxkin kyanqum?

Haik said...

Spm "politruk"-ը ի՞նչ ա:

spm said...

Hayk, you probably too young to know. It is a Soviet thing. But you comment sounded very much like an old Soviet propaganda. Fat cats and all that. It is more complicated than that.

Haik said...

Politikal Rukovoditel :) Sorry to disappoint you but I am far away from Communism I prefer calling it State Capitalism.
The image of a fat cat is not a Soviet made one.
Complicated or not at the end of the day these people make millions and the ordinary people get the sack. I can bring you thousands of examples. Starting from Dutch East India Company to Enron and Lehman Bros.

spm said...

Well, Enron was a fraud. You can find other examples of fraud everywhere at all times. But still: "these people make millions and the ordinary people get the sack" is a damn revolutionary socialist statement. Yes, some people make a lot of money, others do not. Some people work harder than others, some are smarter than others. Some are enterprising, others are lazy. Some become rich, others stay poor. Some go bankrupt after enjoying huge riches, some become very rich out of nowhere. If you have competition, you end up having inequality. If you do not have competition you end up in Soviet Union. It is a prerogative of the state to ensure fair competition, social protection, regulation of rules and their supervision. States have a bad habit of being corrupt. Current crisis apart from coming naturally as natural resources become scarcer, population larger, globalization wider, is triggered mostly by corrupt and unprofessional US administration.

Haik said...

You think Lehman Brothers and etc aren't fraud? Everybody knew that the markets were going to crash. But these people instead of taking measures and balancing their books were enjoying the huge bonuses.
And then the governments with taxpayers money intervenes to save their arses. If a couple of them were put behind bars they would be very cautious.

And yes I am a socialist, nothing bad in that i suppose :)

Haik said...

Better to think for society rather than for capital.

Anonymous said...

LTP = reincarnation of sovietism. why u surprised, spm.

spm said...

Anonymous at 3:05. Or shall I call you LTP-maniac.
What LTP has to do with this discussion?

spm said...

continuing... Haik I do not know if Lehman was a fraud or no. I do not have enough information. Neither I have a habit calling fraud anyone who is rich or enjoys huge bonuses. I do not agree with your statement "Better to think for society rather than for capital". You can not think of society if you don't have capital. Or your thinking will do nothing good to your society. Socialism is a privilege of rich countries. Expropriating from rich and giving it to poor is wrong in theory and was proved to be wrong in practice. It is not socialism, it is sovetism, as our beloved Anonymous called it. There are mechanisms to implement social protection without hurting economic competition. There are small European countries with huge, global companies and excellent social security, which prove that these two things can co-exist. What is funny, almost nobody knows the name of their president, prime minister or head of customs agency in such countries.

Haik said...

SPM I think you are talking about Sweden, Finland, Norway
Socialism with free market economy.
Very different from Capitalism.
They seem big countries but their population is not high. Sweden has around 9 million people, equivalent to Armenians worldwide.

Another example is Switzerland and Austria. Small countries almost the size of Armenia + Artsakh, both landlocked but high value is given to human beings. humans are not the economic term "Labor".

On the other hand we have USA. A capitalist country where 40% dont have medical insurance that is, no hospital will take you in if you have health problems. Around 60% dont know when their next meal is going to be. While it bolsters to be the richest country.

I lived in the USA and traveled extensively getting into different neighborhoods. The social injustice just hurts.
As to Lehman bros and etc who is responsible for their troubles? Do you think it is not irresponsible to drive those companies into bankruptcy because of rogue trading and high bonuses?
If the bosses were not too greedy we wouldn't experience the US market meltdown which dragged with it the rest of the global economy.
It is the system.

Haik said...

Please don't confuse Soviet Communism with Socialism. These are two very different things.

spm said...

Haik, don't try to invent a wheel. Norway, Finland, Holland and almost everyone else in Europe live in what is known as capitalism.
USA is a bad example for variety of reasons. Its young and wild capitalism turned into imperialism.

The moment you accuse someone of being rich just for being rich you are talking Soviet (call it socialism or communism). Guess we agree on what we want, but our approaches how to reach there might be different.

Haik said...

I never accused rich for being rich. I accused the people who get rich at the expense of ours.
Capitalism and free market economy are different things. The Socialism and Sovietism are very different things. Soviet union was State Capitalism i.e. the capital was owned not by people or communes but by the State.
Norway, Sweden ( I am not sure about Netherlands) are socialist countries. The government takes care of its society and doesn't allow reckless adventurers to damage the economy and exploit the people and people's ownership.
Switzerland is a great direct democratic example- People are the State
But anyway. This market crash was man made. It was man made because of greed for money.

spm said...

Hayk, you are trying to embellish socialism, but I think you are confused. Norway sits on oil, it is Saudi Arabia of North, they can afford whatever socialism you want, even Turkmenbashi style. Switzerland is a pillar of capitalism, it is Lehman *1000 + Nazi gold and all kinds of money laundering your Serj Sarkisyan co not dream of. Holland still enjoys riches accumulated from eastern-asian colonies. Sweden, home of a few multinational corporations that can rival americans. They all do boost excellent social protection, and rule of law, but it is not socialism. France is more socialist than any of your mentioned economies, because French obsessed with nationalization of some industries.
You telling me that you are not against rich, but I clearly hear you saying "give me the the power and all armenian Khodorkovski-Berezovski will immediately follow the path of their Russian brethren. Because you can afford to deliberately decide that they became rich at your expense. No independent investigation, no trial... The big problem of post-Soviet countries is not only corruption but absence of law or its frivolous interpretation. You may not like, but that is why people fear and/or hate LTP. Detochkin comes to my mind, if you happened to see old soviet movie "Beregis' avtomobilya", or Vano if you wish, with his zeal to clean streets from petty crime, using criminal gangs.

Haik said...

SPM
I never said no trail, no law - you assume too much :)
If somebody got reach because they had a good idea or entrepreneurial skills that's fine with me. I have nothing against Bill Gates, the Google guys or a millionaire football player. They got rich because of their natural talents. But if there is somebody who runs a sweatshop and gets rich it is wrong. Or somebody who speculates on people knowledge by giving out unreasonable mortgages.
As coming to socialism if there were no socialist conscious people we would still work 18 hours a day from age 11.
This is what I understand by socialism,- when people are valued and respected. In pure capitalism this will never happen. We will have fat cats controlling everything and manipulating people.