Friday, August 08, 2008

Disinformation in full swing.

The Russians claim that Tskhinvali is under their control. The Georgians say the same thing.

One thing is clear, though. Tskhinvali has been badly damaged as a result of the Georgian attack on it with Grad rockets. While these rockets make more sound than damage individually, the barrage we have seen has undoubtebly done a lot of damage to the city. When you consider that the city was full of citizens, it becomes clear that what the Georgians did was very wrong.

42 comments:

Anonymous said...

cnn tells " Bombs rocked Tbilisi early Saturday morning as the fighting intensified and moved into the Georgian capital.

Government buildings, including the Parliament, were evacuated when the bombs fell."

just called to Tbilisi, no single bomb rocked Tbilisi.

Haik said...

BBC and The Guardian say that a military airport near Tbilisi and Poti were bombed. I doubt in this.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/aug/09/russia.georgia

Anonymous said...

haik, that is true, was comfirmed from telephone call.

from previous anon

Haik said...

the 1st anon said
"just called to Tbilisi, no single bomb rocked Tbilisi."

Anonymous said...

haik, its not time for wordplay, its CNN work.
the military airbase is about 5-7 km far from Tbilisi.

So the guardian is right when saying "military airport near Tbilisi and Poti were bombed."

while CNN is lying when saying "Bombs rocked Tbilisi"

Haik said...

The telephone call didn't say anything about the airports. It is surely not true that Tbilisi was bombed.
Latest reports say that Gori military bases were bombed. Gori is only few kilometers from Tskhinval so probably served as a regrouping point for Georgian troops.
This is now a war between Russia and Georgia and not S. Ossetia and Georgia.
From the footage Georgian troops seemed to be well trained and armed with new ( not necessarily modern) equipment e.g. Czech, Turkish and British mobile armored carriers.
The question is will they be able to hold on for another few days?

This is a new type of military activity. Hopefully it will not turn to a NATO-Russia war zone.

Haik said...

Putting all aside the most shameful is the Armenian Public TV. It is nothing more than a translated version of the Russian TV. Even the reporter speaks in heavy Russian ascent.
Shameful. At the end of the day Georgia is our neighbor.
Watch this:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=3251075604850540266&ei=moGdSNj_NYyUjQKWofilDA&q=georgian+TV&vt=lf

Ani said...

CNN is very geographically challenged on this. They have never had proper coverage on Caucasus, for instance, almost nothing on the Armenian elections. They are scrambling on this, so I'd trust British reports a bit more until there are reporters on the ground.

However, CNN did manage to spend a full hour on John Edwards's adultery, so you see where their interests really lie.

Anonymous said...

haik - Why is it shameful? I was waiting for some LTP lackey to find a way to make a disparaging comment about Armenia. Even according to you everyone and their mother's media outlets are pumping out disinformation, but you find it shameful because H1 rebroadcasts news from Russia?

Anonymous said...

///This is a new type of military activity.///

Bombing of Serbia in 1999.

Anonymous said...

Being honest, this may be a breaking point, Russia is tired of barking from all sides, and does what UK did in regard to Falkland island. Allas Rubicon is passed.

Haik said...

Anon August 09, 2008 8:47 AM
Do you really understand what are you talking about? You seem to be in a deep paranoia.

As for H1 and Armenia the least it can do is to stay neutral. Instead they are acting as a Russian puppy.

The best will be as a neighboring country to offer Georgians humanitarian aid, medicine, doctors, shelter ... .
At the end of the day Georgian people are our neighbors and we have a huge Armenian community in the Georgia.

Anonymous said...

haik, what anon is saying is its crisi and using it for internal political reasons is not at least wise. that's called political maturity, instead you are writing "they are acting as a Russian puppy"

Its not they, its us. Please, advise, how should WE act.

Ani said...

Here's a link to the New York Times coverage, which includes photos and a video report.

http://tinyurl.com/55yo4v

Anonymi above, when Armenia doesn't have a free media, when it just has a propaganda-spouting machine, then Armenians do not have proper access to information and facts so they can make informed decisions. Haik's comment wasn't really about internal politics, it's about Armenia stepping up to be a mature country with room for differing viewpoints. The government in Armenia would truly be doing a service for ALL Armenians to have a free press, uncomfortable as that may be for them in the short term. If you don't know what's really happening and don't have proper access to facts, then you leave yourself very vulnerable to those who want to harm you.

Haik said...

Yes, my mistake, I should have said
H1 TV and Armenian government which by the way does not represent the people.

Anonymous said...

ani, if you are interested on my persona then

I watched Russian channels, BBC, CNN, Euronews, from starting of the attacks

I had a chance and read all possible internet resources, including many western outlets

Also I watched UN security council meetings

My subjective observation after all these information: The most cynical lies come from western sources. I understand that its propaganda war and Russians also know how to play. But I have never seen such cynicism in media as it is now.

My second conclusion is that Russia lost the information war. However Russians do not care anymore, as I said before, rubicon is passed.

PS
This reminds me of Baku events, when none cared about what happened to Armenians, but everyone were shouting that the Russian Army entered to Baku with tanks. Its the same plan, Russians waited till the last point /Armenians were killed = Tskhinvali was destroyed/

PPS
Have you read The guardian editorial or The Russian Hammer? These articles were more or less balanced.

Anonymous said...

And Ani

if yuo are not aware of media techniques, cliches and framing, here is some additions of silent points in your linked article. /my additions in brackets/

1,500 Reported Killed [in Tskhinvali after Georgian attack]

GORI, Georgia — [After Georgia’s all night bombing of Tkhinvali] Russia [responded with] air attacks over northern Georgia [which were] intensified on Saturday morning, striking two apartment buildings in the city of Gori and clogging roads out of the area with fleeing refugees. [reportedly total number of refugges from N. ossetia reached 30000 women, children and old people as a result of Gergia's assault]

Russian authorities said their forces had retaken the South Ossetian capital, Tskhinvali, from Georgian control during the morning hours. They reported that 15 Russian peacekeepers and 1,500 civilians have been killed [as a result of Goergia’s unprecedent rocket attack and bombings]


PS
Its not simply mixing two propaganda messages, its reframing and questioning whatever you read

Ani said...

Anonymous, Good for you to have watched everything! And yes, Western and Russian media both have their problems. But in Armenia, you wouldn't have been able to watch all those channels. You would have had only the Russian story. I've seen the Russian side on Russia Today, which has been talking about Abkhazia and South Ossetia (and also about Ukraine, hmm...) for months now. So it's been on their mind, and it's not at all clear which side the military actions. Sometimes (well, usually) the facts only become clear if you put all the puzzle pieces together from many sides. In Armenia, where people are treated as children and half of the puzzle pieces are hidden, you really just can't see the full picture.

Ani said...

Don't worry about my reading techniques, anonymous! I assure you I read between the lines very very well! And sometimes it's presence or absence of reporting, not just what is being said. That's why when Russia Today has spent months covering Abkhazia and South Ossetia, I am not unfortunately the least bit surprised that the conflict has erupted.

Ani said...

For instance, note the date:
Russia Today
http://tinyurl.com/6cbx63
News
July 15, 2008, 14:06

spm said...

I am following news reports from both sides and I do know a thing or two about politics. The media coverage is very polarized and politicized. Neither side reports the truth. In addition most of the western media knows nearly nothing about the issue. For example western news agencies report that Russians bombed Gori, alongside mentioning that Tsxinvali was also under heavy attack and almost destroyed, without even mentioning that Tsxinvali is actually being destroyed by Georgians. This creates impression that all bombing is done by Russians. CNN 2000+ is not much better than FOX News and reminds me of "VREMYA" circa 1980. The british media, which usually is more balanced, this time follows standard anti-Russian cliche and defends interests of BP. It appears that conflict started as a georgian attack in response to well prepared provocation from Ossetian side. The high level of preparation, time, and media coverage point at the Russian special services involvement not just sporadic georgian-ossetian skirmish. The comments from well known Russian military reporter F confirm this hypothesis. It is not just Georgian -Ossetian conflict, its the contact point of Russian-American tensions and Armenian media better take a more neutral, balanced approach than re-transmitting Russian propaganda.

Ani said...

SPM, pretty close to my impressions as well. And also, it's pretty sad that two of the Armenian news sources that write in English, A1plus and ArmeniaNow, are offline (A1plus for 3 weeks!) That's also not a sign of a mature media culture, although Armenianow I guess is having a technical problem.

Anonymous said...

hmmm, cnn starts to talk 'softer'

"Russian troops, tanks and warplanes descended on the province of South Ossetia on Friday, responding to a Georgian offensive aiming to crack down on the province's separatists."

spm said...

here is a nice piece from UK:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2008/aug/09/georgia.russia

the only thing I do not agree about it, is that timing appears to be more beneficial for Russia than to Georgia. I dont think Putin's presence in Beijing detriments his ability to military response. I think Russians took advantage of the Olympic games opening, because the news and world leaders are busy and not much attention will be payed to the conflict somewhere in small country. It helps to cover details of provocation and present it as a pure defense preparation to save Russian peacekeepers and Russian citizens in S. Ossetia.

Anyway, Georgians appeared to be prepared for the attack (they always wanted, so I am not surprised) and stupid and hysterical as always. As someone already mentioned as a result they will lost even those Ossetian villages that were populated by Georgians and loose S. Ossetia forever. There is also great danger of Georgia plummeting into another civil war after defeat and once again becoming a failed state.

Anonymous said...

everyone's darling georgia is looking pretty shaky.

what happened to all the self-loathers who wished we could be just like misha's little experiment to the north?

Ani said...

The phrase "We will bury you!" somehow springs to mind...

Anonymous said...

OMG, if the news about blowing up Rokski tunnel is true then it's hard to imagine the Russian rection. It was the only link between S and N Ossetia. One of the possible scenario is involving Russian navy, or openning second [third, forth] front, damn, is Misha kamikadze?

PS what psychologists say about suiciders? retreat all I will kill myself?

Haik said...

The whole issue is that Armenian government should stop playing Russia's fiddle.

We should keep full neutrality and at most offer humanitarian aid.

Never forget that all our routs to outside word pass through Georgia.

Anonymous said...

haik, did you read the official statement of MFA? stop your noise.

Anonymous said...

nazarian,
careful! russia has provoked this for this very outcome. now armenia is trapped - they have to back 'ossetia' for karabagh reason, but the truth is that the real threat is: RUSSIA. this is why sergh and robik are a problem - they are the usual weak puppets the russians employ to effectively annex a country. good for Georgia! fight these tatar barbarians until the end. meanwhile, the stupid Armos will infight right to their next slaughter...

Haik said...

Anon August 09, 2008 5:21 PM
Please have some politeness when you are addressing people.
Coming to the MFA statement , as a matter of fact I did if you refer to the one issued 2 days ago when the situation was very different. It was a template statement that could easily refer to situation in anyplace.
Has the MFA with your new-appointee Shavarsh koghinjyan Kocharyan taken any measures? They just published a help line. They don't even bother to update their website for the past 8 days.
Where is the self-elect Serj Sargsyan now? Is he enjoying himself in China after the 2 day casino session in Europe? I heard Chinese like partying.

Anonymous said...

its really hard to talk to immatures, people are dying and you are continuing your payqar, even hardliner georgian opposition did not use the chance to blame saak, but we have enough kids to play the game they don't know what. really tired and giving up, do whatever you want, bark at SS and Russia as much as you want, it really doesn't matter. But be careful of your bosses, they will not applaud you, may be LTP has wrong discourse but he is politically matured person.

Haik said...

Anon August 09, 2008 6:02 PM
Do you at least put an effort to analyze the meaning of what you are reading.

You are confused, in contrast to you I don't have bosses. I don't even know who you are ( even though it is not hard to guess)?
Yes people are dying and the only reason is because their countries are governed by puppet dictators.

Haik said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Haik said...

Watch this:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/7551753.stm
He totally lost his sense of judgment.

spm said...

there are great casinos in Maccau, did anyone see Serj in Olympic stadium?

Anonymous said...

I find it funny when the LTP minions cry about people talking rudely to them, but then find it OK to spew invective and make derogatory comments about Armenia's president or other Armenian government employees.

Like my doctor said, there is a reason it is called a "movement."

me said...

"cry about people talking rudely to them, but then find it OK to spew invective and make derogatory comments about Armenia's president or other Armenian government employees."
Well since the latter are (presumably) not present in the conversation, and are public figures/servants subject to criticism and ridicule from the public they are purportedly serving, I don't see how bringing them up is relevant.

Anonymous said...

Probably Serjik doesn't even know that there is a war. I guess he is too occupied now in counting cards and inhaling white powder.

spm said...

anonymous at 11:17
could you explain me please, why is whenever anyone says anything critical of Serj or Robik, always someone anonymous not only replies defending them, which to me would be normal discussion, but immediately brings up LTP. It is OK for you or anyone to defend their policies. After all on the background of Russian spanking of Georgia for its extremist pro-Western policies, Armenian obedience looks wise. I can argue that it is not, but thats not the point. The question is why you bring up LTP? Being against Rojik corrupt autocracy does not mean automatically to be in favor of LTP. The topic of this conversation is not LTP or even Armenian opposition, but how Armenian media and MFA reacts to the events in neighboring country. Criticizing the administration that rules over a country for last 10 years and sold out for nothing the strategic assets of the country and monopolized the rest of petty commerce is a legitimate and common practice for citizen of any country. But instead of explaining us what is good in Rojuk banditocracy you and your anonymous brethren immediately lash out at a person that has no influence on the country's economic, internal or external policies for the last 10 years. Don't you feel stupid or funny doing that?

me said...

"Being against Rojik corrupt autocracy does not mean automatically to be in favor of LTP."
Exactly, and actually they do a huge favor to LTP by doing this, essentially agreeing with him that he's the only true opposition in the country.

Ani said...

Regarding "Russia Today," the blog "Thoughts on the Road" (poliscimedia.blogspot.com) pointed toward a "Moscow Times" article. Russia Today's reporter in Georgia, William Dunbar, was forced to resign after the station refused to carry his satellite feed. Seems he wasn't "reporting" what the station wanted to hear. This station came to the U.S. and U.K. with the promise of being an independent station. Now we see that promise was bankrupt.

http://www.moscowtimes.ru/
article/600/42/369695.htm