3rd anomymous, there's no reason to over-analyze it. Relax, it's a variation of an old Vazgen quote.
"Ոչ մի ծրագիր, որքան էլ այն փայլուն լինի, չի կարող իրականություն դառնալ, եթե չկա հավատք, նպատակին հասնելու համախմբվածություն, եթե մեզանից յուրաքանչյուրը չի մտածում, որ այս երկրի ճակատագիրը կախված է մի մարդուց, եւ այդ մարդն ինքն է: Եթե համոզված չէ, որ մենք, միայն մենք ենք կառուցելու մեր տունը: Եվ վերջապես, ավելի լավ է մեկ մոմ վառել, քան հավերժ բողոքել խավարից:"
P.S. What's so wrong about making people feel that they're "owners of the process"? Last time I checked, this was the basis of our constitution. (Article 2: In the Republic of Armenia power lies with the people.)
There is no "hamazhoghovrdakan sharzhum", there is a sort of dividing movement, to divide the nation.
When Vazgen Sargsyan was forming yerkrapah and asking "du" to defend Armenia, he was not saying that those who will not fight in Karabakh are traitors.
Moreover, the stories of Vazgen Sargsyan was always about us, the stories of LTP is about 'others', so called tatar-monghols.
United for what? that's the question
Go and read about Ku Klux Klan and how united they were against their "Tatar-Monghols"
And there is no ideology behind Nikol's 'let's be united'. It is a paradox a nation can't be united against another part of the nation.
I would be the one to join Nikol&Ko if it was a 'let's be united to change and cultivate new culture'
this story is only about changing masters. so stop comparing Vazgen's messages of unification with Nikol's nation-dividing process.
I'm not comparing anything, I'm pointing out the origins of the slogan and how it has nothing to do with making the "revolutionaries" feel as though they are the "owners" of the process.
"United for what? that's the question" United for better Armenia perhaps? That doesn't work for you I guess...Listen, we can frame this however we want to; you've chosen to present it as a struggle against Gharabaghcis ("It is a paradox a nation can't be united against another part of the nation. "), which it is not.Toxmaxi Mher, Dodi Gago, Tigran Torosyan, etc. etc. etc. aren't from Gharabagh, and this is a fight against them as well, or rather against the lawlessness they have created.
And if you're following recent international developments, you've probably realized that the Gharabagh conflict resolution is nearing and it's going to overwhelmingly favor Azerbaijan. If you know a single Armenian from Gharabagh, you also know that this means war.
I have not a single doubt in my mind that the political prisoners today as well others who supported LTP will be in the front lines if the war started tomorrow.
This has nothing to do with "dividing" the nation; people are allowed to have different opinions about the way the country should move forward, and if they think that Serzh is not the answer, or if they think that Levon is the way to go, that is their inherent right.
Article 24: Everyone is entitled to assert his or her opinion. No one shall be forced to retract or change his or her opinion.
Article 25: Everyone has the right to form associations with other persons, including the right to form or join trade unions. Every citizen is entitled to form political parties with other citizens and join such parties.
I was not talking about gharabagtsis, I was talking about gaguik torosyan and tokhmakhi mher and many others. If you think they are not from our nation, then the harm has already done, and the division line is drawn.
///United for better Armenia perhaps? ///
I haven't listened a word from LTP about better Armenia. His speech is that there are others and they are evil, and he has shown no plan how to change it.
///this is a fight against them as well, or rather against the lawlessness they have created.///
the lawlessness was created by all elites in Armenia, and today we have less lalessness compared with LTP era. However LTP a) didn't confess and b) the movement do not obey the laws and c) supports illegals who support the movement
so its not movement against the lawlessness /especially Nikol's anarchic articles/
///Gharabagh conflict resolution is nearing and it's going to overwhelmingly favor Azerbaijan.///
well, as a person who is too close to the conflict I can add dozen other analyses. first reason me not being with LTP is re his approach to NKR conflict. So go and ask him his opinion. He made couple of remarks which shows his ideological bankruptcy. RK and SS are neither good, but their approach re status quo is better from you know what.
///I have not a single doubt in my mind that the political prisoners today as well others who supported LTP will be in the front lines if the war started tomorrow.///
me too. but the naivety was always instruments in the hands of great manipulators. However I beleive in Armenian army and my hope is the yerkrapah idea to never overwhelm over the army anymore.
////P.S. Vazgen's quote was from after the war.////
Vazgen had the idea of unification and h has dozens of such quotes. Usually he was giving it whenever a division in the nation could happen. For example he has interview praising SS when ant-SS activity was there. Or he defended Armen Darbinyan when the last lost PM position and everyone was happy to attack him, etc, etc. Vazgen Sargsyan went so far as to unite with Karen Demirchyan, and again, with the idea of unification. Is LTP ready to unite with SS in state-building process?
///people are allowed to have different opinions about the way the country should move forward + plus quotes from constitution///
This is the most ridiculous part of the movement, It's democracy for the sake of democracy. Actually there is no opinion. There is very dangerous discourse of LTP which he never says, but they are obvious in his hints and actions. I doubt that people support this discurse. So this is manipulation of a master. And not forget that 1932 Hitler win was one of the most democratic. At the same time patriot act of the USA is not democratic. No value can be absolute - even democracy. This game is zero sum, so winners-all losers. And this is done in the name of democracy????
"If you think they are not from our nation, then the harm has already done, and the division line is drawn."
That has to be one of the most bizarre things I have ever read. Of course I think they are from "our nation", but being Armenian doesn't put them above criticism and doesn't mean people can't wage a struggle against the criminal regime they have helped create/are a part of. So if we follow your logic, Nairi Hunanyan is an Armenian as well, let's not criticize him because that will divide us and that's what the enemy wants!
I can speak, without equivocation, for the overwhelming majority who supported and still supports LTP that there were NEVER united with Toxmaxi Mher or Dodi Gago, so LTP wasn't the reason that they now stand "divided". The reason I quote the constitution is to show you that having a different opinion is every Armenian's fundamental right, and just because we have different takes on the best path to the future doesn't mean we are divided or weak. Let's not make a catastrophe of disagreeing. It's a healthy process.
And I'm glad you brought up Vazgen uniting with Karen, because as you'll remember Karen was Qocharyan's political enemy and Vazgen joined with Karen to counter Qocaryan. So much for unity. He was a big proponent of this idea, but he spoke of it more during the war, when it was absolutely necessary that we stood united as a nation. But unity doesn't mean uniformity of opinion; and unity doesn't mean rallying behind a political force you do not agree with for the sake of "stability".
And how do you figure we have less lawlessness now?
"RK and SS are neither good, but their approach re status quo is better from you know what." Then what? The unfounded myth of LTP "selling out" Arcax? Have you been following recent developments? Do you realize that SS has sold Arcax out for staying in power? Did you follow the remarkable symmetry or coincidence or whatever you want to call it of PACE passing a very favorable resolution for the Armenian authorities coupled with an extremely unfavorable one regarding Gharabagh? Did you see Medvedev's and Aliev's joint statement which read in part that the forced changing of international borders was unacceptable?
"It's democracy for the sake of democracy." This makes zero sense. It's democracy for the sake of a better future, and a better Armenia, and that's that. I agree that democracy is a mean, not an end, and if you look around the world, all prosperous nations are democratic and free (relatively on both counts of course, but still).
As for the Hitler comparison; I won't even go there. Same with the Patriot Act. You're putting me in a strange position of having to defend the Patriot Act, but I mean it was a temporary restriction of certain rights during war, and Armenians have shown that they are ready and willing to sacrifice way more than just privacy rights during a time of conflict. Comparing the United States and Armenia in the context of democracy, freedom and human rights is just silly.
Thank God the majority of the people have NOTHING to do with LTP. We have already been burned badly once with that anti Armenian pseudo intellectual. Keep Pashinyan out of our hair and that is one more anti Armenian hate spew champ that we don't need.
See ya Nicol.
I think it is incredible watching someone defend Nicol. Like watching a car-wreck just for the intrigue. All that we end up with is damage and death.
thanks for honest answer, you made clear that you support LTP and ready to defend him. Let it be. My approach is easier, I don't defend any person, but principles and values.
You constructed all your logic based on single word "criticism"
Now change the word criticism to the real word "hate, defamation, swearing, threat, etc, etc" Is this critique? And you call it opinions?
Yes, u r right, uniformity is worse, but LTP has created a uniformity in hate. Seems u read many books, please tell me what is the source of violence, and are hate speeches dangerous for mass-violence?
///re arcax///
I was not talking about stereotypical bullshits spread by both camps. U r in the wrong way. I am talking about LTP complex as a missioner of peace.
IN regard to the SS, u have no facts about selling arcax. This trick was also used aganist RK.
And if Armenian delegation was ot busy in PACE re Armenian revolution stupidy, then they could find some time and efforts to negotiate re Azerbaijanin resolution which doesn't favor Armenia. The more international community will play with Armenian internal politics /thanks to LTP/ the less we will have resources to fight against Azerbaijani diplomats. Take this as a rule of thumb and pass it to the master of manipulations.
////re comparison with patriot act///
I will be very short. Are we at war or not? Have you ever read in your many books about fifth column? And its not about RK stupid "stability" theory. It's about real security threats.
PS Yes chaos and instability are also opportunities for positive change. Why LTP uses chaos to create more chaos?
PPS "Payqar payqar minchev verch" verch is the vision, but vision was never said, except 'haghtelu enq', 'haghteul enq' means LTP comes to power /framed as fair election/. So the meaning of payqar is for LTP to come to power? And the cost is .....
anonymous - don't waste time with such lengthy and logical arguments. these ltp fanatics are so enamored that nikol could blow his nose into a kleenex and everyone would say how remarkable the output looks.
i mean, the "future depends on..." is so overused and cliched it is just funny.
What I find incredible is defending Serj or Robik. Especially after the massacre on March 1.And after the mass arrests and torture before, during and after that.
I don't feel as though I'm defending LTP, but if that's your impression, let it be.
Let me just respond to three things, because I feel like we can go back and forth like this for a long time, taking each other's words out of context and constructing what have become pretty cliche arguments on all sides at this point.
1)"Now change the word criticism to the real word "hate, defamation, swearing, threat, etc, etc" Is this critique? And you call it opinions?"
This drives me absolutely nuts. Why do you assume or present it as though it was Levon's (or Nikol's) speeches that made people hate Dodi, Mher, Serzh, Robik, etc. etc. etc? Years of failed policy, lawlessness, poverty, ignoring of the constitution, violation of human rights, unsolved murders, etc weren't enough? Do you honestly have that low of an opinion of the collective intelligence of over 49% (by official numbers) of the Armenian population that you think it would take Levon making speeches for them to realize what's going on and in your words to start "hating" the people who were the reason for their misery?
2) "And if Armenian delegation was ot busy in PACE re Armenian revolution stupidy, then they could find some time and efforts to negotiate re Azerbaijanin resolution which doesn't favor Armenia."
Bullshit. For the millionth time, we're blaming the effect, and not the cause. Have free and fair elections, don't shoot at your citizens for no apparent reason, respect their rights, and perhaps you'd find you have more time to focus your diplomatic efforts on Gharabagh. At any rate it was a strange juxtaposition for me: 1620 was overwhelmingly pro-authorities, and the Gharabagh statements clearly weren't. So when they were faced with a choice of having some unfavorable statements made on their rule and their human rights record or Gharabagh, they chose the latter. Does that not mean that them hanging on to power is more important than Gharabagh? Who is selling out Gharabagh now?
3)"Payqar payqar minchev verch" verch is the vision, but vision was never said"
"1988-ի համազգային շարժումն ուներ հայտնի մի կարգախոս՝ «Պայքար, պայքար մինչեւ վերջ»: «Վերջի» տակ մենք նկատի ունեինք երկու նպատակ՝ Հայաստանի անկախության վերականգնումը եւ Արցախի ազատագրումը, որոնք արդեն իրականություն են: Իսկ այսօր «վերջ» ասելով մենք պետք է դնենք երկու այլ նպատակ՝ Հայաստանի սահմանադրական կարգի ու արժանապատվության վերականգնումը եւ Արցախի ազատության իրավական (դե յուրե) ձեւակերպումը: Ուրեմն՝ Պայքար, պայքար մինչեւ վերջ:"
We indeed could go on forever, but at the risk of making you go further nuts, here are 3 alternative takes on your 3 points above:
1) re: hate-speech. You make an argument that it wasn't ltp who made people hate all those you list (not to mention hating ltp, vano, grzo, lady hakob etc). However, this is like apologizing for the Ku Klux Klan, "hey we hated blacks before you burned a few in a bonfire, so that is ok".
2) free and fair elections and Karabakh may not have all that much to do with each other.
3) don't you find it ironic that ltp, in one of his 1st speeches, appealed to oligarchs... "come with me and you'll be ok"?? Sign of a democrat? Of someone interested in democracy? -smile-
1) I think you're missing the point. The hate is created when a citizen sees the impunity which the oligarchs and "their people" enjoy. The hate is created when citizens see the seemingly endless luxury in which these people live while paying embarrassingly low taxes and reporting every year that they are barely breaking even. They don't need Levon telling them that Dodi Gago and people like Dodi Gago are the source to their problems. They already know. And I'm not big on historical comparisons, but I'm curious, when exactly did LTP "burn" any of these people? And why are you comparing/equating the plight of black Americans to the "hatred" that blood-sucking criminal gangs face?
2)The two are not related. What I'm trying to say is that the authorities exchanged favorable view of their rule for an unfavorable one on Gharabagh. Also, in the early 90's democracy was a huge advantage we held over Azerbaijan that was quickly lost.
3) I wasn't a big fan of that part of his campaign and I'm still not. I think what he hoped to do was if not draw them to his side, to at least neutralize their catastrophic effect on the elections. It was pragmatic, sure, but I didn't like it either. However, I did find it interesting that immediately after the elections some of the rats (such as Jhangiryan) started abandoning ship and still haven't retracted their statements which would surely set them free.
1) there s alot of disgust in society: directed at Vano, at LTP, at Kocharyan, at Serj, etc. and for alot of reasons. This does not give license to fan racist flames of hatred: see comments like "half-Karabaxci- half-Armenian" as example.
These comments were made to ratchet up the hysteria level to facilitate clashes. Yes, I believe that LTP is most (though not completely) responsible for March 1.
2) I agree that democracy is a huge advantage, and will only come about with similarly-minded authorities and opposition, neither of which existed in the post-election fiasco.
3) The single best thing to come out of LTP's power-hunt was the shaking out of rats like Lady Hakob, Jhangiryan, and the MFA leeches from government. Good riddance to them, and I hope that government continues to improve.
Well the hatred of Levon and Vano and the specter of HHSh was utilized effectively both in '98 and in these past elections. It goes both ways. The Gharabagh rhetoric was put into more spotlight here in some of these blogs than out on the campaign trail.
Agreed re: Lady Hakob and some others. They actually got rid of some really talented diplomats at the MFA...Perhaps more significantly though the opposition field was cleaned up so we don't have to listen to clowns such as Dhol, idiot (Vazgen M.) and AXQ pretend to be in the opposition.
Anonymous said... //Thank God the majority of the people have NOTHING to do with LTP. We have already been burned badly once with that anti Armenian pseudo intellectual. Keep Pashinyan out of our hair and that is one more anti Armenian hate spew champ that we don't need.// M.... I have a question to you..Do you live in Armenia now or have ever lived here?
Dear citizen of Armenia,
Honestly, this may be the first time I have found any positive value in anything this guy writes.
ReplyDeleteAnonymous-jan, if this is true, then you are deaf, dumb, blind, and without a soul or brain, and there is no hope for you.
ReplyDelete2nd anonymous is right, even in this message there is nothing positive, Nikol is unable to write anything positive.
ReplyDeleteThis message is from any revolution theories "make the people feel if they are owners of the process" and particularly
"let them think if they use Levon and not vice versa"
Timing=July 4 meeting
3rd anomymous, there's no reason to over-analyze it. Relax, it's a variation of an old Vazgen quote.
ReplyDelete"Ոչ մի ծրագիր, որքան էլ այն փայլուն լինի, չի կարող իրականություն դառնալ, եթե չկա հավատք, նպատակին հասնելու համախմբվածություն, եթե մեզանից յուրաքանչյուրը չի մտածում, որ այս երկրի ճակատագիրը կախված է մի մարդուց, եւ այդ մարդն ինքն է: Եթե համոզված չէ, որ մենք, միայն մենք ենք կառուցելու մեր տունը: Եվ վերջապես, ավելի լավ է մեկ մոմ վառել, քան հավերժ բողոքել խավարից:"
P.S. What's so wrong about making people feel that they're "owners of the process"? Last time I checked, this was the basis of our constitution. (Article 2: In the Republic of Armenia power lies with the people.)
Dear me
ReplyDeleteIf we are united against enemy is another story
There is no "hamazhoghovrdakan sharzhum", there is a sort of dividing movement, to divide the nation.
When Vazgen Sargsyan was forming yerkrapah and asking "du" to defend Armenia, he was not saying that those who will not fight in Karabakh are traitors.
Moreover, the stories of Vazgen Sargsyan was always about us, the stories of LTP is about 'others', so called tatar-monghols.
United for what? that's the question
Go and read about Ku Klux Klan and how united they were against their "Tatar-Monghols"
And there is no ideology behind Nikol's 'let's be united'. It is a paradox a nation can't be united against another part of the nation.
I would be the one to join Nikol&Ko if it was a 'let's be united to change and cultivate new culture'
this story is only about changing masters. so stop comparing Vazgen's messages of unification with Nikol's nation-dividing process.
I'm not comparing anything, I'm pointing out the origins of the slogan and how it has nothing to do with making the "revolutionaries" feel as though they are the "owners" of the process.
ReplyDelete"United for what? that's the question"
United for better Armenia perhaps? That doesn't work for you I guess...Listen, we can frame this however we want to; you've chosen to present it as a struggle against Gharabaghcis ("It is a paradox a nation can't be united against another part of the nation.
"), which it is not.Toxmaxi Mher, Dodi Gago, Tigran Torosyan, etc. etc. etc. aren't from Gharabagh, and this is a fight against them as well, or rather against the lawlessness they have created.
P.S. Vazgen's quote was from after the war.
And if you're following recent international developments, you've probably realized that the Gharabagh conflict resolution is nearing and it's going to overwhelmingly favor Azerbaijan. If you know a single Armenian from Gharabagh, you also know that this means war.
ReplyDeleteI have not a single doubt in my mind that the political prisoners today as well others who supported LTP will be in the front lines if the war started tomorrow.
This has nothing to do with "dividing" the nation; people are allowed to have different opinions about the way the country should move forward, and if they think that Serzh is not the answer, or if they think that Levon is the way to go, that is their inherent right.
Article 24: Everyone is entitled to assert his or her opinion. No one shall be forced to retract or change his or her opinion.
Article 25: Everyone has the right to form associations with other persons, including the right to form or join trade unions. Every citizen is entitled to form political parties with other citizens and join such parties.
me
ReplyDeleteyou answered to my question
I was not talking about gharabagtsis, I was talking about gaguik torosyan and tokhmakhi mher and many others. If you think they are not from our nation, then the harm has already done, and the division line is drawn.
///United for better Armenia perhaps? ///
I haven't listened a word from LTP about better Armenia. His speech is that there are others and they are evil, and he has shown no plan how to change it.
///this is a fight against them as well, or rather against the lawlessness they have created.///
the lawlessness was created by all elites in Armenia, and today we have less lalessness compared with LTP era. However LTP a) didn't confess and b) the movement do not obey the laws and c) supports illegals who support the movement
so its not movement against the lawlessness /especially Nikol's anarchic articles/
///Gharabagh conflict resolution is nearing and it's going to overwhelmingly favor Azerbaijan.///
well, as a person who is too close to the conflict I can add dozen other analyses. first reason me not being with LTP is re his approach to NKR conflict. So go and ask him his opinion. He made couple of remarks which shows his ideological bankruptcy. RK and SS are neither good, but their approach re status quo is better from you know what.
///I have not a single doubt in my mind that the political prisoners today as well others who supported LTP will be in the front lines if the war started tomorrow.///
me too. but the naivety was always instruments in the hands of great manipulators. However I beleive in Armenian army and my hope is the yerkrapah idea to never overwhelm over the army anymore.
////P.S. Vazgen's quote was from after the war.////
Vazgen had the idea of unification and h has dozens of such quotes. Usually he was giving it whenever a division in the nation could happen. For example he has interview praising SS when ant-SS activity was there. Or he defended Armen Darbinyan when the last lost PM position and everyone was happy to attack him, etc, etc. Vazgen Sargsyan went so far as to unite with Karen Demirchyan, and again, with the idea of unification. Is LTP ready to unite with SS in state-building process?
///people are allowed to have different opinions about the way the country should move forward + plus quotes from constitution///
This is the most ridiculous part of the movement, It's democracy for the sake of democracy. Actually there is no opinion. There is very dangerous discourse of LTP which he never says, but they are obvious in his hints and actions. I doubt that people support this discurse. So this is manipulation of a master. And not forget that 1932 Hitler win was one of the most democratic. At the same time patriot act of the USA is not democratic. No value can be absolute - even democracy. This game is zero sum, so winners-all losers. And this is done in the name of democracy????
"If you think they are not from our nation, then the harm has already done, and the division line is drawn."
ReplyDeleteThat has to be one of the most bizarre things I have ever read. Of course I think they are from "our nation", but being Armenian doesn't put them above criticism and doesn't mean people can't wage a struggle against the criminal regime they have helped create/are a part of. So if we follow your logic, Nairi Hunanyan is an Armenian as well, let's not criticize him because that will divide us and that's what the enemy wants!
I can speak, without equivocation, for the overwhelming majority who supported and still supports LTP that there were NEVER united with Toxmaxi Mher or Dodi Gago, so LTP wasn't the reason that they now stand "divided". The reason I quote the constitution is to show you that having a different opinion is every Armenian's fundamental right, and just because we have different takes on the best path to the future doesn't mean we are divided or weak. Let's not make a catastrophe of disagreeing. It's a healthy process.
And I'm glad you brought up Vazgen uniting with Karen, because as you'll remember Karen was Qocharyan's political enemy and Vazgen joined with Karen to counter Qocaryan. So much for unity. He was a big proponent of this idea, but he spoke of it more during the war, when it was absolutely necessary that we stood united as a nation. But unity doesn't mean uniformity of opinion; and unity doesn't mean rallying behind a political force you do not agree with for the sake of "stability".
And how do you figure we have less lawlessness now?
"RK and SS are neither good, but their approach re status quo is better from you know what."
Then what? The unfounded myth of LTP "selling out" Arcax? Have you been following recent developments? Do you realize that SS has sold Arcax out for staying in power? Did you follow the remarkable symmetry or coincidence or whatever you want to call it of PACE passing a very favorable resolution for the Armenian authorities coupled with an extremely unfavorable one regarding Gharabagh? Did you see Medvedev's and Aliev's joint statement which read in part that the forced changing of international borders was unacceptable?
"It's democracy for the sake of democracy."
This makes zero sense. It's democracy for the sake of a better future, and a better Armenia, and that's that. I agree that democracy is a mean, not an end, and if you look around the world, all prosperous nations are democratic and free (relatively on both counts of course, but still).
As for the Hitler comparison; I won't even go there. Same with the Patriot Act. You're putting me in a strange position of having to defend the Patriot Act, but I mean it was a temporary restriction of certain rights during war, and Armenians have shown that they are ready and willing to sacrifice way more than just privacy rights during a time of conflict. Comparing the United States and Armenia in the context of democracy, freedom and human rights is just silly.
Thank God the majority of the people have NOTHING to do with LTP. We have already been burned badly once with that anti Armenian pseudo intellectual. Keep Pashinyan out of our hair and that is one more anti Armenian hate spew champ that we don't need.
ReplyDeleteSee ya Nicol.
I think it is incredible watching someone defend Nicol. Like watching a car-wreck just for the intrigue. All that we end up with is damage and death.
Well me
ReplyDeletethanks for honest answer, you made clear that you support LTP and ready to defend him. Let it be. My approach is easier, I don't defend any person, but principles and values.
You constructed all your logic based on single word "criticism"
Now change the word criticism to the real word "hate, defamation, swearing, threat, etc, etc" Is this critique? And you call it opinions?
Yes, u r right, uniformity is worse, but LTP has created a uniformity in hate. Seems u read many books, please tell me what is the source of violence, and are hate speeches dangerous for mass-violence?
///re arcax///
I was not talking about stereotypical bullshits spread by both camps. U r in the wrong way. I am talking about LTP complex as a missioner of peace.
IN regard to the SS, u have no facts about selling arcax. This trick was also used aganist RK.
And if Armenian delegation was ot busy in PACE re Armenian revolution stupidy, then they could find some time and efforts to negotiate re Azerbaijanin resolution which doesn't favor Armenia. The more international community will play with Armenian internal politics /thanks to LTP/ the less we will have resources to fight against Azerbaijani diplomats. Take this as a rule of thumb and pass it to the master of manipulations.
////re comparison with patriot act///
I will be very short. Are we at war or not? Have you ever read in your many books about fifth column? And its not about RK stupid "stability" theory. It's about real security threats.
PS
Yes chaos and instability are also opportunities for positive change. Why LTP uses chaos to create more chaos?
PPS
"Payqar payqar minchev verch" verch is the vision, but vision was never said, except 'haghtelu enq', 'haghteul enq' means LTP comes to power /framed as fair election/. So the meaning of payqar is for LTP to come to power? And the cost is .....
anonymous - don't waste time with such lengthy and logical arguments. these ltp fanatics are so enamored that nikol could blow his nose into a kleenex and everyone would say how remarkable the output looks.
ReplyDeletei mean, the "future depends on..." is so overused and cliched it is just funny.
What I find incredible is defending Serj or Robik. Especially after the massacre on March 1.And after the mass arrests and torture before, during and after that.
ReplyDeleteAre the rumors true that Levon and family have abandoned ship and are moving to LA?
ReplyDeleteLocal paper have reported that his son is long gone and the rest of the family has followed.
Any confirmation or denial?
I don't feel as though I'm defending LTP, but if that's your impression, let it be.
ReplyDeleteLet me just respond to three things, because I feel like we can go back and forth like this for a long time, taking each other's words out of context and constructing what have become pretty cliche arguments on all sides at this point.
1)"Now change the word criticism to the real word "hate, defamation, swearing, threat, etc, etc" Is this critique? And you call it opinions?"
This drives me absolutely nuts. Why do you assume or present it as though it was Levon's (or Nikol's) speeches that made people hate Dodi, Mher, Serzh, Robik, etc. etc. etc? Years of failed policy, lawlessness, poverty, ignoring of the constitution, violation of human rights, unsolved murders, etc weren't enough? Do you honestly have that low of an opinion of the collective intelligence of over 49% (by official numbers) of the Armenian population that you think it would take Levon making speeches for them to realize what's going on and in your words to start "hating" the people who were the reason for their misery?
2)
"And if Armenian delegation was ot busy in PACE re Armenian revolution stupidy, then they could find some time and efforts to negotiate re Azerbaijanin resolution which doesn't favor Armenia."
Bullshit. For the millionth time, we're blaming the effect, and not the cause. Have free and fair elections, don't shoot at your citizens for no apparent reason, respect their rights, and perhaps you'd find you have more time to focus your diplomatic efforts on Gharabagh. At any rate it was a strange juxtaposition for me: 1620 was overwhelmingly pro-authorities, and the Gharabagh statements clearly weren't. So when they were faced with a choice of having some unfavorable statements made on their rule and their human rights record or Gharabagh, they chose the latter. Does that not mean that them hanging on to power is more important than Gharabagh? Who is selling out Gharabagh now?
3)"Payqar payqar minchev verch" verch is the vision, but vision was never said"
"1988-ի համազգային շարժումն ուներ հայտնի մի կարգախոս՝ «Պայքար, պայքար մինչեւ վերջ»: «Վերջի» տակ մենք նկատի ունեինք երկու նպատակ՝ Հայաստանի անկախության վերականգնումը եւ Արցախի ազատագրումը, որոնք արդեն իրականություն են: Իսկ այսօր «վերջ» ասելով մենք պետք է դնենք երկու այլ նպատակ՝ Հայաստանի սահմանադրական կարգի ու արժանապատվության վերականգնումը եւ Արցախի ազատության իրավական (դե յուրե) ձեւակերպումը: Ուրեմն՝ Պայքար, պայքար մինչեւ վերջ:"
-Levon Ter-Petrosyan, at his very first rally
We indeed could go on forever, but at the risk of making you go further nuts, here are 3 alternative takes on your 3 points above:
ReplyDelete1) re: hate-speech. You make an argument that it wasn't ltp who made people hate all those you list (not to mention hating ltp, vano, grzo, lady hakob etc). However, this is like apologizing for the Ku Klux Klan, "hey we hated blacks before you burned a few in a bonfire, so that is ok".
2) free and fair elections and Karabakh may not have all that much to do with each other.
3) don't you find it ironic that ltp, in one of his 1st speeches, appealed to oligarchs... "come with me and you'll be ok"?? Sign of a democrat? Of someone interested in democracy? -smile-
1) I think you're missing the point. The hate is created when a citizen sees the impunity which the oligarchs and "their people" enjoy. The hate is created when citizens see the seemingly endless luxury in which these people live while paying embarrassingly low taxes and reporting every year that they are barely breaking even. They don't need Levon telling them that Dodi Gago and people like Dodi Gago are the source to their problems. They already know. And I'm not big on historical comparisons, but I'm curious, when exactly did LTP "burn" any of these people? And why are you comparing/equating the plight of black Americans to the "hatred" that blood-sucking criminal gangs face?
ReplyDelete2)The two are not related. What I'm trying to say is that the authorities exchanged favorable view of their rule for an unfavorable one on Gharabagh. Also, in the early 90's democracy was a huge advantage we held over Azerbaijan that was quickly lost.
3) I wasn't a big fan of that part of his campaign and I'm still not. I think what he hoped to do was if not draw them to his side, to at least neutralize their catastrophic effect on the elections. It was pragmatic, sure, but I didn't like it either. However, I did find it interesting that immediately after the elections some of the rats (such as Jhangiryan) started abandoning ship and still haven't retracted their statements which would surely set them free.
me -
ReplyDelete1) there s alot of disgust in society: directed at Vano, at LTP, at Kocharyan, at Serj, etc. and for alot of reasons. This does not give license to fan racist flames of hatred: see comments like "half-Karabaxci- half-Armenian" as example.
These comments were made to ratchet up the hysteria level to facilitate clashes. Yes, I believe that LTP is most (though not completely) responsible for March 1.
2) I agree that democracy is a huge advantage, and will only come about with similarly-minded authorities and opposition, neither of which existed in the post-election fiasco.
3) The single best thing to come out of LTP's power-hunt was the shaking out of rats like Lady Hakob, Jhangiryan, and the MFA leeches from government. Good riddance to them, and I hope that government continues to improve.
Well the hatred of Levon and Vano and the specter of HHSh was utilized effectively both in '98 and in these past elections. It goes both ways. The Gharabagh rhetoric was put into more spotlight here in some of these blogs than out on the campaign trail.
ReplyDeleteAgreed re: Lady Hakob and some others. They actually got rid of some really talented diplomats at the MFA...Perhaps more significantly though the opposition field was cleaned up so we don't have to listen to clowns such as Dhol, idiot (Vazgen M.) and AXQ pretend to be in the opposition.
Anonymous said...
ReplyDelete//Thank God the majority of the people have NOTHING to do with LTP. We have already been burned badly once with that anti Armenian pseudo intellectual. Keep Pashinyan out of our hair and that is one more anti Armenian hate spew champ that we don't need.//
M....
I have a question to you..Do you live in Armenia now or have ever lived here?
"I have a question to you..Do you live in Armenia now or have ever lived here?"
ReplyDeleteYes, for many years.
Why, do you?