I wonder if this is the same vehicle that ran over a protester on March 1. The video of that incident is a couple posts below. I took the screen shot from this video on YouTube.
Let's ratchet up the level of hysteria as much as possible.
First the army was supposed to side with "the people", then they didn't. Then 40 (or 80, or 480 ...) people were "massacred, then no one found a 9th body. First they killed the young boy, then, not so sure. This list is interminable, but check the archives of a yellow rag like A1+ for more.
Does anyone here consider what the upshot of all these accusations are?
The rumor-mill is alive and well, fully fueled by feelings of entitlement because of all the one-sided state-media. Hey, if they can lie, so should we!
right reflective, since there are a lot of unchecked rumors, lets just forget it and move on. Who cares for a few unfortunates who lost their lives if the result suits you.... Serj is a president, there is a real chance of continuity in the farce called democratic Armenia, military festivities at the Opera are just a few days away!!! Only some disgruntled people like Nazarian are trying to spoil all the fun. Dont you wish Serj could ban bloggers who are sticking their nose where they shouldnt? Our brave solders.... ah not those who fought in Kharabakh 10 years ago and who are filling Armenian prisons now in scores... these ones, who defended heroic Serjik and Robik....Hurrah
reflective, have you ever wondered why the defenders of the Kocharian - Sargsian duo start issuing death threats in the second or third sentence of their posts? I don't mean only you. Wherever you go, if there is a post glamorizing the criminal duo, there is always a death threat or a call to violence.
You are going to say that you are being sarcastic based on the blog entries here.
But show me a single post that I have placed here that has a death threat.
Nazarian - I never said that you have issued death threats. I just don't understand why there has to be so much hate in so many messages.
I am simply against sensationalism, hate-driven racism, and invective which have been so prevalent the last few months.
It achieves nothing but divide society further.
I have only seen death threats from LTP supporters in the blogworld, but I would deplore it from all, no matter what the reason. And yes, mine above is sarcastic, in case this is not obvious.
Yes there is. It's just that the opposition and the government fail to acknowledge that they neither have majority support.
As for the vehicle, like I said about vehicles carrying barbed wire on Unzipped's post on the matter, what they tow is usually triangular as this photo clearly shows.
However, in the other video the trailer was not triangular so no, they do not appear to be the same and I'm still not sure what the other vehicle was towing.
Yes, there could be varying sorts of trailers for barbed wire, but like I said, they're usually triangular.
Reflective, you are asking about why there's mo much hatred? Here's a couple of things that will help you understand it: 1. watch the video again 2. watch the video which shows a guy with half his face blown away with a gun shot 3. read the bios of the members of parliament and look at their phtographs (start with Lfik Samo or Dodi Gago) 4. count how much money the authorities have stolen from teh people by artificially devaluing foreign currencies 5. go to an average Armenian village or regional town and try to have a hot shower 6. try to carry some stones for less than a dollar a day, as some women in Armenian villages do.
After you do all these things, you'll be surprised how calm and forgiving the Armenian opposition supporters are
I didn't say dissatisfied, sad, or angry. I said hate.
Nothing in this list your wrote makes me HATE. It makes me frustrated, sad, and angry.
The radical opposition is not showing signs of wanting better. They follow a demagogue preaching hate and disregard for the state, its institutions and processes.
Huge difference. And until this is not embraced and understood, there will never be coalescence. You can only gather so many people around a message of hate.
3. read the bios of the members of parliament and look at their phtographs (start with Lfik Samo or Dodi Gago)
Anonymous, you mean the same guys that Levon extended a friendly hand to? Here's what he said about Dodi Gago, for example.
Former President Levon Ter-Petrosian on Tuesday heaped praise on one of Armenia’s wealthiest businessmen close to President Robert Kocharian and urged him to defect to the opposition camp.
Ter-Petrosian claimed that Gagik Tsarukian will end up losing his huge fortune if Prime Minister Serzh Sarkisian becomes Armenia’s next president as he campaigned in areas north of Yerevan where the influential tycoon holds sway.
“I have come here to preach morality to Gagik Tsarukian because I believe that that person has not acted against his people to date,” he told hundreds of people attending his rally in the town of Abovian. “That person has morality. I will not preach morality to Serzh Sarkisian, Robert Kocharian and their cronies because they have no morality.”
Reflective, when you are permanently "dissatisfied, sad, or angry", and you are not Jesus Christ, you might start hating people who are the reason why you are "dissatisfied, sad, or angry", It's absolutely not surprsing. Actually, the opposite would have been surprising. Onik, Nobody's saying that Levon is perfect, he made a lot of mistakes, including the whole affair with general Manvel, who in the end didn't even help the protesters at all.So what Levon did with Manvel and Jahangirian was wrong from the moral point of view and useless from a pragmatic point of view. However, Levon, immediately next day after the elections, called Gagik Tsarukyan DODI GAGO on the Opera Square. He, and before him Nikol, were the only ones who had the guts to stand up in the Opera square and actually say the words "Dodi Gago".
Really? He called Tsarukyan, "Dodi Gago"??? Well, in that case, let's start the revolution again, because he should be president. That should be the litmus test, whether or not you can call someone names in public!!
Anonymous, thanks for the honest answer. I too consider it was a mistake and the type of one that would make people think twice about becoming part of his movement. Of course, you don't think that way although think it was probably a mistake.
Anyway, thanks for responding properly and while I really can't see much in Levon at all, I will be honest and say I have admired Pashinian for a while. Actually, I dislike his newspaper and I dislike his rhetoric behind the microphone.
However, as a person he's always civil with me as I am with him. And although he is a hothead I do consider that he is genuinely passionate about what he believes in which is not common to find among public figures in Armenia.
Wish he could be a bit more rational, but yes, he has been brave in taking on the oligarchs in the past and I don't think he suddenly changed his position during this election although I could be mistaken.
Nevertheless, I do take exception with Levon's stance and do not consider it moral. I also think it's kind of arrogant and egotistical. It's almost as if he has some kind of divine right to absolve people of their past misdeeds if they find redemption through him. If they don't, he turns on them big time.
Onnik and reflective, may i ask you to be consistent in your arguments? This country is already for 10 years ruled singlehandedly by RK and SS. People in this country are "sad, dissatisfied and angry". Most of them really hate the duo that usurped not only political but also all economic power of the country. Even people serving them hate them. The protests are against THEM. It is not about Levon. It is simply not. Every time anyone criticizes RK or SS you respond by saying that Levon is corrupt, Levon is not democratic, Levon is jewish, Levon is turkish...etc. Look, Levon is not ruler of this country anymore. Levon can not jail people, harass them with tax inspection, buy them, give them the post of secretary of national security or minister of social affairs. He can not hurt Dodi Gago, he can only threaten to do so, or try to lure. All he can is talk. And all he says is that the near dictator rulers of this country are destroying it.
So do we. We are not talking about Levon, we are talking about people in power, who destructively rule this country. I can not understand where do you see the evolution? The only thing that evolves is fraudulent mechanism of election. Everything else is degrading.
To be honest, I think the argument is consistent. Making arguments (even correct ones) is strongly affected by the legitimacy of the source.
Let me give you an example that I am quite confident you will understand and agree with. If Artur Baghdasrian now decides he is against corruption and wants to work with the authorities, many in the LTP camp will scream that he is a traitor (?), a sellout, and a demagogue. He will say, (using your argumentation above)... "it is not about me, these LTP guys were in power for 7 years, sucking the country dry, expelling a million of their brothers and sisters to create the worst demographic crisis since the Genocide. It's not about me, it is about changing the system for the better, for honest elections, for milk and honey and a chicken in every pot etc etc etc."
Do you believe him?
Should we believe the rhetoric of the radical opposition? Thankfully there is a governmental and platform track record to go by (making the AB analogy weak in comparison) to the truly discredited LTP demagoguery.
So, you see, it is about the leadership, it is about LTP, and this is why coalescence hasn't taken place around LTP and can never.
Lets put LTP out of the equation for a second. Are you satisfied with Kocharian and Serj in the following fields? Economic growth? Social justice? Foreign Policy? Kharabagh policy? Education? Building of infrastructure? Diaspora relations?
Reflective, what you say about saying "Dodi Gago" as a litmus test, even though you are being ironic, is probably right. Of course it's not the only litmus test, but it's one of the many. I suppose you don't live in Armenia, so it's easy for you to make fun of us - people in Armenia, but you should know that saying out loud "Dodi Gago" is actually a crime in today's Armenia, a crime which is punished by beating up severely.
Onik, One should think twice before joining LEvon. But one also should think twice about stayiing neutral, because in that way he's actually helping the current powers to stay. I don't like Levon, and I don't really trust him. But I know that Robert's and Serzhik's regime is taking Armenia to a catastrophe, and something has to be done about it NOW! And parliamentary elections of 2007showed that NONE of the political leaders, except Levon, are able to do it. Take RAffi, for example - he was robbed of probably half of his votes, and he didn't do anything about it. And later, when he ran for an MP in Ashtarak,he was 4th. He's simply too nice to be able to fight agaist Rob and SErzhik. And Levon, whatever his mistakes were, was able to create a huge movement. This is not my position only- I'm sure this is what most people in the opposition think, except for the HHSH old guard of course.
I think it is not the same vehicle, video was shot at the crossing of Paronyan and Leo streets -- run down took place almost in front of “8” supermarket on Paronyan str; burnt car on the photo is near “Dzkan khachmeruk” (former fish-shop) crossing from Grigor Lusavorish side (number 12), almost in front of “Anahit” beauty salon (you can see long white signboard on the other side of the street).
Instead of seeing this as a pro-freedom and anti-totalitarian movement, supporters of the regime (such as reflective) argue that it is a pro-Levon movement and then go on to attack Levon. What they fail to recognize (and yes Reflective you DO fail to recognize this) is that the struggle isn't about Levon. It is a much broader struggle about the soul and fate of the Armenian nation and how people have grown tired of the injustices and corruption.
Think about that for one minute before you go into your well rehearsed diatribe about how things were more unjust and corrupt in Levon's time. We have heard that before from you, no need to bore us again.
Your blog keeps getting better and better! Your older articles are not as good as newer ones you have a lot more creativity and originality now keep it up!
And I wonder, could this be the driver??
ReplyDeleteLet's kill this animal!!!!
Let's ratchet up the level of hysteria as much as possible.
First the army was supposed to side with "the people", then they didn't. Then 40 (or 80, or 480 ...) people were "massacred, then no one found a 9th body. First they killed the young boy, then, not so sure. This list is interminable, but check the archives of a yellow rag like A1+ for more.
Does anyone here consider what the upshot of all these accusations are?
The rumor-mill is alive and well, fully fueled by feelings of entitlement because of all the one-sided state-media. Hey, if they can lie, so should we!
right reflective, since there are a lot of unchecked rumors, lets just forget it and move on. Who cares for a few unfortunates who lost their lives if the result suits you.... Serj is a president, there is a real chance of continuity in the farce called democratic Armenia, military festivities at the Opera are just a few days away!!! Only some disgruntled people like Nazarian are trying to spoil all the fun. Dont you wish Serj could ban bloggers who are sticking their nose where they shouldnt?
ReplyDeleteOur brave solders.... ah not those who fought in Kharabakh 10 years ago and who are filling Armenian prisons now in scores... these ones, who defended heroic Serjik and Robik....Hurrah
spm - I didn't defend the authorities' actions. re-read pls.
ReplyDeleteIt's carrying barbed wire, and that's what you said, nazarian.
ReplyDeletereflective, have you ever wondered why the defenders of the Kocharian - Sargsian duo start issuing death threats in the second or third sentence of their posts? I don't mean only you. Wherever you go, if there is a post glamorizing the criminal duo, there is always a death threat or a call to violence.
ReplyDeleteYou are going to say that you are being sarcastic based on the blog entries here.
But show me a single post that I have placed here that has a death threat.
Nazarian - I never said that you have issued death threats. I just don't understand why there has to be so much hate in so many messages.
ReplyDeleteI am simply against sensationalism, hate-driven racism, and invective which have been so prevalent the last few months.
It achieves nothing but divide society further.
I have only seen death threats from LTP supporters in the blogworld, but I would deplore it from all, no matter what the reason. And yes, mine above is sarcastic, in case this is not obvious.
There is no division among the society.
ReplyDeleteThere is a divide between the people and the government.
There is no division among the society.
ReplyDeleteYes there is. It's just that the opposition and the government fail to acknowledge that they neither have majority support.
As for the vehicle, like I said about vehicles carrying barbed wire on Unzipped's post on the matter, what they tow is usually triangular as this photo clearly shows.
However, in the other video the trailer was not triangular so no, they do not appear to be the same and I'm still not sure what the other vehicle was towing.
Yes, there could be varying sorts of trailers for barbed wire, but like I said, they're usually triangular.
Reflective,
ReplyDeleteyou are asking about why there's mo much hatred?
Here's a couple of things that will help you understand it:
1. watch the video again
2. watch the video which shows a guy with half his face blown away with a gun shot
3. read the bios of the members of parliament and look at their phtographs (start with Lfik Samo or Dodi Gago)
4. count how much money the authorities have stolen from teh people by artificially devaluing foreign currencies
5. go to an average Armenian village or regional town and try to have a hot shower
6. try to carry some stones for less than a dollar a day, as some women in Armenian villages do.
After you do all these things, you'll be surprised how calm and forgiving the Armenian opposition supporters are
I didn't say dissatisfied, sad, or angry. I said hate.
ReplyDeleteNothing in this list your wrote makes me HATE. It makes me frustrated, sad, and angry.
The radical opposition is not showing signs of wanting better. They follow a demagogue preaching hate and disregard for the state, its institutions and processes.
Huge difference. And until this is not embraced and understood, there will never be coalescence. You can only gather so many people around a message of hate.
3. read the bios of the members of parliament and look at their phtographs (start with Lfik Samo or Dodi Gago)
ReplyDeleteAnonymous, you mean the same guys that Levon extended a friendly hand to? Here's what he said about Dodi Gago, for example.
Former President Levon Ter-Petrosian on Tuesday heaped praise on one of Armenia’s wealthiest businessmen close to President Robert Kocharian and urged him to defect to the opposition camp.
Ter-Petrosian claimed that Gagik Tsarukian will end up losing his huge fortune if Prime Minister Serzh Sarkisian becomes Armenia’s next president as he campaigned in areas north of Yerevan where the influential tycoon holds sway.
“I have come here to preach morality to Gagik Tsarukian because I believe that that person has not acted against his people to date,” he told hundreds of people attending his rally in the town of Abovian. “That person has morality. I will not preach morality to Serzh Sarkisian, Robert Kocharian and their cronies because they have no morality.”
http://www.armenialiberty.org/armeniareport/report/en/2008/02/D28C0DDB-5776-4C18-B9E8-C960915C8F9E.ASP
Reflective,
ReplyDeletewhen you are permanently "dissatisfied, sad, or angry", and you are not Jesus Christ, you might start hating people who are the reason why you are "dissatisfied, sad, or angry",
It's absolutely not surprsing.
Actually, the opposite would have been surprising.
Onik,
Nobody's saying that Levon is perfect, he made a lot of mistakes, including the whole affair with general Manvel, who in the end didn't even help the protesters at all.So what Levon did with Manvel and Jahangirian was wrong from the moral point of view and useless from a pragmatic point of view.
However, Levon, immediately next day after the elections, called Gagik Tsarukyan DODI GAGO on the Opera Square.
He, and before him Nikol, were the only ones who had the guts to stand up in the Opera square and actually say the words "Dodi Gago".
Really? He called Tsarukyan, "Dodi Gago"??? Well, in that case, let's start the revolution again, because he should be president. That should be the litmus test, whether or not you can call someone names in public!!
ReplyDeleteAnonymous, thanks for the honest answer. I too consider it was a mistake and the type of one that would make people think twice about becoming part of his movement. Of course, you don't think that way although think it was probably a mistake.
ReplyDeleteAnyway, thanks for responding properly and while I really can't see much in Levon at all, I will be honest and say I have admired Pashinian for a while. Actually, I dislike his newspaper and I dislike his rhetoric behind the microphone.
However, as a person he's always civil with me as I am with him. And although he is a hothead I do consider that he is genuinely passionate about what he believes in which is not common to find among public figures in Armenia.
Wish he could be a bit more rational, but yes, he has been brave in taking on the oligarchs in the past and I don't think he suddenly changed his position during this election although I could be mistaken.
Nevertheless, I do take exception with Levon's stance and do not consider it moral. I also think it's kind of arrogant and egotistical. It's almost as if he has some kind of divine right to absolve people of their past misdeeds if they find redemption through him. If they don't, he turns on them big time.
Sorry, I don't accept it.
Onnik and reflective, may i ask you to be consistent in your arguments? This country is already for 10 years ruled singlehandedly by RK and SS. People in this country are "sad, dissatisfied and angry". Most of them really hate the duo that usurped not only political but also all economic power of the country. Even people serving them hate them. The protests are against THEM. It is not about Levon. It is simply not. Every time anyone criticizes RK or SS you respond by saying that Levon is corrupt, Levon is not democratic, Levon is jewish, Levon is turkish...etc.
ReplyDeleteLook, Levon is not ruler of this country anymore. Levon can not jail people, harass them with tax inspection, buy them, give them the post of secretary of national security or minister of social affairs. He can not hurt Dodi Gago, he can only threaten to do so, or try to lure. All he can is talk.
And all he says is that the near dictator rulers of this country are destroying it.
So do we. We are not talking about Levon, we are talking about people in power, who destructively rule this country. I can not understand where do you see the evolution? The only thing that evolves is fraudulent mechanism of election. Everything else is degrading.
To be honest, I think the argument is consistent. Making arguments (even correct ones) is strongly affected by the legitimacy of the source.
ReplyDeleteLet me give you an example that I am quite confident you will understand and agree with. If Artur Baghdasrian now decides he is against corruption and wants to work with the authorities, many in the LTP camp will scream that he is a traitor (?), a sellout, and a demagogue. He will say, (using your argumentation above)...
"it is not about me, these LTP guys were in power for 7 years, sucking the country dry, expelling a million of their brothers and sisters to create the worst demographic crisis since the Genocide. It's not about me, it is about changing the system for the better, for honest elections, for milk and honey and a chicken in every pot etc etc etc."
Do you believe him?
Should we believe the rhetoric of the radical opposition? Thankfully there is a governmental and platform track record to go by (making the AB analogy weak in comparison) to the truly discredited LTP demagoguery.
So, you see, it is about the leadership, it is about LTP, and this is why coalescence hasn't taken place around LTP and can never.
the car that raced into the crowd was a grey, unmarkedd UAZ (bulldog type) also known as a WILLIS -- like the one shown in the picture.
ReplyDeleteI saw pictures of it in Yerevan on the same day -- the pictures were taken by a trusted friend of mine.
Lets put LTP out of the equation for a second. Are you satisfied with Kocharian and Serj in the following fields? Economic growth? Social justice? Foreign Policy? Kharabagh policy? Education? Building of infrastructure? Diaspora relations?
ReplyDeleteReflective,
ReplyDeletewhat you say about saying "Dodi Gago" as a litmus test, even though you are being ironic, is probably right.
Of course it's not the only litmus test, but it's one of the many.
I suppose you don't live in Armenia, so it's easy for you to make fun of us - people in Armenia,
but you should know that saying out loud "Dodi Gago" is actually a crime in today's Armenia, a crime
which is punished by beating up severely.
Onik,
ReplyDeleteOne should think twice
before joining LEvon. But one also should think twice about stayiing neutral, because in that way he's actually helping the current powers to stay.
I don't like Levon, and I don't really trust him. But I know that Robert's and Serzhik's regime is taking Armenia to a catastrophe,
and something has to be done about it NOW!
And parliamentary elections of 2007showed that NONE of the political leaders, except Levon, are able to do it. Take RAffi, for example - he was robbed of probably half of his votes, and he didn't do anything about it. And later, when he ran for an MP in Ashtarak,he was 4th. He's simply too nice to be able to fight agaist Rob and SErzhik.
And Levon, whatever his mistakes were, was able to create a huge movement.
This is not my position only- I'm sure this is what most people in the opposition think, except for the HHSH old guard of course.
Anonymous 1:50 PM
ReplyDelete++++++
I think it is not the same vehicle, video was shot at the crossing of Paronyan and Leo streets -- run down took place almost in front of “8” supermarket on Paronyan str; burnt car on the photo is near “Dzkan khachmeruk” (former fish-shop) crossing from Grigor Lusavorish side (number 12), almost in front of “Anahit” beauty salon (you can see long white signboard on the other side of the street).
ReplyDeleteInstead of seeing this as a pro-freedom and anti-totalitarian movement, supporters of the regime (such as reflective) argue that it is a pro-Levon movement and then go on to attack Levon. What they fail to recognize (and yes Reflective you DO fail to recognize this) is that the struggle isn't about Levon. It is a much broader struggle about the soul and fate of the Armenian nation and how people have grown tired of the injustices and corruption.
ReplyDeleteThink about that for one minute before you go into your well rehearsed diatribe about how things were more unjust and corrupt in Levon's time. We have heard that before from you, no need to bore us again.
Your blog keeps getting better and better! Your older articles are not as good as newer ones you have a lot more creativity and originality now keep it up!
ReplyDelete